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Discussion
of Y DNA tests 12 April 2003
The DNA molecule is like a ladder which
has been twisted. The rungs are formed of pairs of "bases" composed of
combinations of adenine (A), thymine (T), cytosine (C), and guanine (G),
eg GATA.
Short Tandem Repeat (STR)
are short sequences of DNA that are repeated numerous times in a head to
tail manner. The sequence of "gatagatagatagata"
would represent 4 repeats of the sequence "gata", or 4 rungs of the ladder
which are the same. The numbers given for the results of our tests are
thus like so many rungs of the ladder at each marker position.
These numbers of repeats are constant
from generation to generation but, at each marker position, do change randomly
by reducing or increasing by one, about once every 500 generations
on average. Taking a generation as 25 years a change or mutation would
occur about every 12,500 years. If you look at 25 markers you would expect
to find 1 mutation every 20 generations, 500years.
If a man has 2 sons, he could have
10 generations of descendants in 250 years on those 2 branches. Looking
at the last 2 on each branch they are 20 generations apart, ie both are
10 back to the common ancestor. When we test their DNA we can expect their
numbers to be all the same except at one marker which is different by 1.
However because of the random nature (plus or minus) and timing we wouldn't
be surprised if they were the same or different by 1 or 2.
Our Results of Y DNA Tests
(red figures indicate mismatches with Joes results)
Marker
Tim Joe Fred
1 393
13 13 14
2 390
23 24
23
3 19
14 14 14
4 391
11 11 11
5 385a
11 11 11
6 385b
14 11
13
7 426
12 12 11
8 388
12 12 12
9 439
11 11 10
10 389/1
13 13 14
11 392
13 13 14
12 389/2
28 30
30
13 458
16 17
14 459a
9 9
15 459b
10 9
16 455
11 11
17 454
11 12
18 447
25 25
19 437
15 14
20 448
19 19
21 449
31 29
22 464a
17 15
23 464b
17 15
24 464c
18 15
25 464d
18 15
Total differences from Joe: Tim
= 3 mismatches with a total difference of 6 mutations from 12 markers.
Fred = 16 mismatches and
a total difference of 24 mutations from 25 markers
Its quite obvious we are not close
genetically, well beyond the time range during which the paternal hereditary
surname system has been used.
Haplogroup.
Atlantic Modal
Haplotype (AMH): the descriptive term used by Dr James F.
Wilson to characterize the most common haplotype in parts of Europe. Joe
is spot on in this group, typical of western Europe. Tim is only 1 mutation
off.
Fred is way off the AMH.
Marker AMH
Tim
Joe Fred
19
14 14
14 14
388
12
12 12 12
390
24
23 24
23
391
11
11 11 11
392
13
13 13 14
393
13
13 13 14
Red figures show the mutations from
the AMH. It is obvious that Freds haplotype is quite unlike the AMH. It
is more typical of Northern Europe and has been found commonly in northern
Russia and the Saami people (Lapland), some in Finland Sweden Norway. Could
it have come from a Viking? FTDNA say it looks like he is in Group N but
it would require more testing to confirm.
European Y STR Database
This database contains results
from 12,802 Y DNA tests on Caucasian people from all over Europe. It allows
inspection of geographical origins of other peoples with the same test
results at 9 common markers, namely 393, 390, 19, 391, 385a, 385b, 389i,
392, and 389ii. This permits the formation of "haplogroups".
http://ystr.charite.de/index_kl.html
Tim's results showed 37 matches in the database. For a list
of match locations and a map see:
http://ystr.charite.de/map/big_map.html?ranint=94197
The numbered red dots show locations of people with the same figures
as Tim for the markers named above.
Joe's results had 4 matches in the database.
http://ystr.charite.de/map/big_map.html?ranint=62124
Fred had 24 matches, including 11 in Finland, 5 in Estonia and
3 in Sweden.
http://ystr.charite.de/map/big_map.html?ranint=26646
This database will mean more in years to come, as more results are
posted to it.
Where to from here?
We all need tests from other volunteers
for further comparison. Known second, third or fourth cousins would be
ideal to establish the haplotypes for each line. At the moment we are waiting
on Rons results (from Melbourne, OZ) to confirm a common ancestor
with Fred. If they are the same we will have established one Wiltshire
Vines haplotype back to the mid 1700s. There will be others where adoptions
and false paternity in the records has occurred.
Fred Vines 12th April 2003
Arthur &
Frank Vine UK Tests 20th April 03
The results of Arthur and Frank Vine's
tests surprised us all. Not only did they match each other, proving a family
line divergence in early 1800s, but unexpectedly matched with Fred. This
means that they all have a common ancestor in the Grittenham Wiltshire
family of Vines. At the moment this family is confirmed as descendants
of Benjamin Vines and Elizabeth Smith who married at Nailsworth Gloucestershire,
near Stroud, on 26 Sep 1717. Benjamin was born 18 Apr 1689; his parents
are believed to have been John Vines, possibly 1667?-c1715?, and wife Christian.
Arthur and Franks line come from
either a brother of Benjamin or from one of Benjamins sons, John 1720,
Charles 1722, Peter 1724 or William 1729. Freds line is well established
as from Edward 1725, the other son of Benjamin.
Further detective work on the birth,
death and marriage records are required to determine the exact genealogy
of Arthur and Franks lines. If Rons results, due in about a week, also
match we will declare it as a prominent haplotype of the Wiltshire Vines.
The name Vines and Vine is often
interchanged. Indeed my milkman usually refers to me as Mr Vine! However
I still believe that there is a major Vine line in southern England genetically
distinct from the Wilts./Glos. Vines.
The family of Benjamin and Elizabeth
has only recently been uncovered from a study of their 1760s wills.
Haplogroup
Haplogroups are a classification
of test results according to the origins of the test participants. These
have been determined from long-isolated populations and/or statistical
geographic concentrations. My results (Fred) were accompanied by a note
from FTDNA that they appeared to be in Haplogroup N. I will take the further
test to confirm this; it is performed at slower mutating markers
than used for the standard Y DNA test and can thus detect older relationships.
Group N is common in northern Europe and Asia and reflects ancient and
pre-historic population movements.
Fred Vines 19 April 2003
Ron Vines of Melbourne, 12 Marker
Results 30th April 2003
Only the results from the first 12 markers
have been received, apparently the tests on the rest are being repeated.
So far Rons test indicates a common
ancestor with Fred and Arthur & Frank Vine. The latter pairs common
Wiltshire ancestor lived in the late 1700s and may be from the family of
Benjamin and Elizabeth Vines of Grittenham or from one of the sons of John
and Christian. No mutations have so far been seen for these 4 participants.
See the interim tree of Grittenham
Vines.
Fred Vines 30 Apr 03
Ron Vines
Rons results are now complete showing
a perfect 25/25 match with Fred and Arthur and Frank Vine. The search is
on to trace the most recent common ancestor in North Wiltshire to these
four.
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