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This page presents additional details related to the discussion on
the Thrift /Frith /Firth surname DNA project Intro /Results page

DNA Project Site Map Page
Firth /Frith /Thrift surname origins - continued from the Intro & Results page
In Old English 'fyrhpe' (frith, woodland), the character p stands for the runic Anglo-Saxon character 'thorn' similar to 'th.' In Old English the sound of the 'thorn' character could be unvoiced as in 'thick', or voiced as in 'the.' (The Y in 'Ye' --as in Ye Olde Pizza Shoppe-- is actually a Middle English representation of 'thorn.' Middle English 'Ye' is pronounced 'the.')

Reaney and Wilson's Dictionary of English Surnames (which however does not cover any Scottish, Irish, or Welsh origins) states that English names deriving from the word fyrhpe include Firth, Frith, Thrift, Frid, Fridd, Fryd, Freeth, Freed, Vreede, Frift, Fright, Freak, Freake, Freke, Firk, and Firks. The Welsh toponym Ffridd is also related. The exact form of the surname thus depended on the local dialect, and on the listening and spelling skills -or lack thereof- of the census-taker or parish scribe.

In the book 'Surnames of Scotland' by George Black, the name Thrift is said to have derived from the common meaning of the noun 'thrift' (which the Oxford English Dictionary relates to the verb 'thrive,' also spelled with a thorn). Laurencius del Frith was a witness in 1317, and Richard de la Fryth was in county Norfolk in 1273. James Thrift was a reidare (minor cleric in the Scottish Church) at Collace, a parish near Perth, in 1574.

Other origins have also been noted, most obviously from the place name Firth. (Firth and Frith have often been interchanged not only in surnames, but also in place names, as in The Pentland Frith.) One very intriguing variation is the surname Evilthrift, found near Hertfordshire (and later in Australia), which in some cases evolved into Thrift (example). (I would offer a wild guess that this surname may be derived from Aethelfrith, King of Bernicia (Northumbria), d. 616.) For more on Firth /Frith /Thrift surname origins see
http://members.tripod.com/firth_home/surname.htm
www.4crests.com/freak-coat-of-arms.html
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/FRITH/2007-08/1187849538

(It is worth noting that in the British Isles, surnames were generally adopted after 1000 AD, and, in places like Wales, as recently as the latter part of the 18th Century (see Origination Of Scottish Names, Norman History, and Welsh Names and Surnames). Tracing a surname can only take you back at most 30 generations or so, though descendants of nobility may be able to trace back a bit before the establishment of the surname.)
How many markers should I order to be tested? - continued from the Intro & Results page
It is suggested that you NOT purchase an FTDNA 12-marker test. This is a matter of statistics and cost. Although 12-marker tests are useful for ruling out relationships in some cases, to demonstrate real relationships one needs AT LEAST 25 markers, or, if you are in the R1b haplogroup, at least 37 markers. (Being R1b is like being named JOHN SMITH; additional identifiers are required. Since by far, most people with British or Western European ancestry are in haplogroup R1b, you will likely need more markers to clearly distinguish your family from others not related, and to clearly show your own real relationships.) It is cheaper to order a 25, 37, or 67-marker test initially than it is to upgrade to that many markers after starting with a 12 marker test.

If you know you are in a branch of one well-known family, but wish to determine how your branch fits into the whole (i.e. at which generation your specific line branched away from the others) you will probably need a 67-marker test both for yourself and for people in the other branches of the same family.

It is reasonable to expect that related families will have similar DNA with a few random mismatches. To use kit #112459 as an example, in the FTDNA database there are over 650 entries that match this kit's results with two or less mismatches at 12 markers, and there are 142 near-matches at 25 markers. All of these have unrelated surnames; it is likely (based on evidence from additional markers; most of these 142 near-matches have tested more than 25 markers) that NONE of these 12- or 25-marker matches are in fact closely related to Nathaniel. If any near-matches were found with a related surname, we would encourage these people to upgrade to testing 37 or 67 markers, which would show much more detail about the closeness of the relationship. In the FTDNA database there are only 2 near-matches to Nathaniel when comparing 37 markers. This is far fewer false positives than when comparing 12 or 25 markers. The two closest 37-marker matches to Nathaniel have 4/37 (11%) mismatched markers; again, neither of these has a related surname. (A rough calculation can be done that shows the Most Recent Common Ancestor for 4 mismatches out of 37 markers was probably around 700 years ago or more.) This illustrates that it is helpful to test as many markers as possible; it also shows that one can't expect to "luck into" finding matches already in the database. We need to seek out distant relatives and people with related surnames, and urge them to be tested in order to establish relationships by DNA testing.

There is an additional benefit from testing more markers. With more markers it is sometimes possible to ascertain that a family derives from a particular subclade of their haplogroup. For instance with 12 markers it is not certain whether Robt T Thrift is in the Norse subclade of I1a or the "ultra-Norse" or Anglo-Saxon or other subclades; with more markers this should become clear. Among R1b's ("Pictish /Celtish"), it may be possible to tell whether one is a member of Northwest Irish (a descendant of Niall of the Nine Hostages) or a La Tene Celt.

On the other hand, in certain cases, valuable results can be shown with only 12 markers tested. This usually occurs when two families being considered turn out to have two different haplogroups, resulting in mismatches in several markers even with only 12 markers to compare. As described in the results section of the main page, even with only 12 markers it is clear that Robt T Thrift is quite unrelated to either Nathaniel Thrift or John Frith.