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Ancestors of Amy Russell Tolbert



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Géza , Duke




Husband Géza , Duke 1

           Born: 972
     Christened: 
           Died: 997
         Buried: 
       Marriage: 




Wife

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 



Children
1 M Stephen I , King of Hungary 1 2

           Born: 975 - Esztergom, , Komárom-Esztergom, Hungary
     Christened: 
           Died: 1038
         Buried: 
         Spouse: Giselle of Bavaria (      -      )




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Gilbert de Brione and Arletta (Herleve) de Falaise, Officer Of The Household




Husband Gilbert de Brione

           Born: Abt 979
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 


         Father: Geoffrey , Count of Eu (Abt 0979-      )
         Mother: 


       Marriage: 




Wife Arletta (Herleve) de Falaise, Officer Of The Household 1 2

           Born: Abt 1003 - Falaise, , Basse-Normandie, France 3
     Christened: 
           Died: Abt 1050 - Abbey Of St. Grestain, Normandy, France 4
         Buried:  - Abbey Of St. Grestain, Normandy, France


         Father: Falubert "The Tanner" de Falaise (0978-      ) 2
         Mother: Doda de Falaise (Abt 0980-      ) 5



   Other Spouse: Robert I "The Magnificent" Normandy, 6th Duke Normandy (1000-1035) 1 6 7 8 9 10

   Other Spouse: Viscount Harlevin (Herluis) de Conteville (Abt 1001-Abt 1066) 6 7 11 12 - Falaise, Calvados, Normandy, Fr



Children

General Notes: Wife - Arletta (Herleve) de Falaise, Officer Of The Household

MISC: A Danish wifeWeis' "Ancestral Roots. . ." (121:23), (121E:22), (130:23). She was the m other of William the Conquerer (illigitimate). AKA Herleve.

Cokayne's "Complete Peerage" (Chester, p.164).Stuart's "Royalty for Commoners" (160:32), fo r her marriage to HERLUIN.

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Henry Blair and Gisele , de Fruili




Husband Henry Blair

           Born: Abt 1846
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 


         Father: William G. Blair (      -      )
         Mother: Ann E. Allen (Abt 1812-      )


       Marriage: 30 Jun 1955 - Cardston, Alberta, Canada 13




Wife Gisele , de Fruili 14

           Born:  - Italy
     Christened: 
           Died: 13 Jun 910
         Buried: 


         Father: Berengar I , King of Italy (0840-0924) 14
         Mother: Bertila , de Spoleto (Bef 0870-0915) 14



   Other Spouse: Adelbert I , Count of Italy (0880/0885-0923/0925) 14



Children

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Theodoric , Count of Ringelheim and Gisele , de Lorraine




Husband Theodoric , Count of Ringelheim 14

           Born: 867 - Ringelheim, Goslar, Hannover, Prussia
     Christened: 
           Died: 8 Feb 917 - Ringelheim, Goslar, Hannover, Prussia
         Buried: 


         Father: N. , von Threkwitigau (Bef 0857-      ) 14
         Mother: Mathila , von Ittergau (Bef 0857-After 0909) 14


       Marriage: 882

   Other Spouse: Reginhilde von Friesland (      -      )




Wife Gisele , de Lorraine 14

           Born: 863-865
     Christened: 
           Died: Bef 907
         Buried: 


         Father: Lothair II , King de Lorraine (0835-0869) 14
         Mother: Waldrade d'Alsace (Bef 0842-After 0868) 14



   Other Spouse: Godfried (      -      ) 14 - 882



Children
1 F Mathilda of Ringleheim, Countess von Ringeheim 6 14 15 16 17

           Born: 894 - Ringelheim, Goslar, Hannover, Germany 16
     Christened: 
           Died: 14 May 968 - Quedlinburg, , Sachsen-Anhalt, Germany 16
         Buried: 
         Spouse: Henry I "The Fowler" of Saxony, Holy Roman Emperor (Abt 0876-0936) 6 14 17 18 19
           Marr: 909 16




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Godfried and Gisele , de Lorraine




Husband Godfried 14

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 
       Marriage: 882




Wife Gisele , de Lorraine 14

           Born: 863-865
     Christened: 
           Died: Bef 907
         Buried: 


         Father: Lothair II , King de Lorraine (0835-0869) 14
         Mother: Waldrade d'Alsace (Bef 0842-After 0868) 14



   Other Spouse: Theodoric , Count of Ringelheim (0867-0917) 14 - 882



Children

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Rollo Rognvaldsson, the Viking, the Ganger, 1St Duke Of Normandy and Gisele




Husband Rollo Rognvaldsson, the Viking, the Ganger, 1St Duke Of Normandy 1 2 6 20 21 22




            AKA: Rolf, Rolf "The Ganger" 1St Duke Of Normandy,23 Rollo Rognvaldsson 1st Duke Of Normandy
           Born: Abt 860 - Maer, Nord-Trondelag, Norway 21
     Christened: 
           Died: Abt 932 - Notre Dame, Rouen, Seine-Inferieure, Normandy, France 21
         Buried:  - Notre Dame, Rouen, Nornandie, Neustria


         Father: Rognvald "the Wise" Eysteinsson, Earl of More (Abt 0830-0890) 14
         Mother: Groa Ragnhild Hrolfsdotter (Abt 0848-      )


       Marriage: 912

   Other Spouse: Duchess Poppa of Normandy (Abt 0872-Abt 0938) 2 6 22 - 891




Wife Gisele 24

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: 919
         Buried: 


         Father: Charles III the Simple , King of France (0879-0929) 1 2
         Mother: Eadgifu (0902-After 0955) 2





Children
1 F Living (details have been suppressed)

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 




General Notes: Husband - Rollo Rognvaldsson, the Viking, the Ganger, 1St Duke Of Normandy

Rollo, also called ROLF, or ROU, French ROLLON (b. c. 860--d. c. 932), Scandinavian rover who founded the duchy of Normandy.

911-Under treaty of St Claire received Normandy from Charles III King of France

Making himself independent of King Harald I of Norway, Rollo sailed off to raid Scotland, England, Flanders, and France on pirating expeditions and, about 911, established himself in an area along the Seine River. Charles III the Simple of France held off his siege of Paris, battled him near Chartres, and negotiated the treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte, giving him the part of Neustria that came to be called Normandy; Rollo in return agreed to end his brigandage. He gave his son, William I Longsword, governance of the dukedom (927) before his death. Rollo was baptized in 912 but is said to have died a pagan. [Encyclopaedia Britannica CD, 1997, ROLLO]

Banished from Norway to the Hebrides ca. 876.

------------------------------

The following information, arguing against Rollo's ancestry as I have it (certainly putting it to question), is contained in a post-em by Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann AT yahoo.com. (Note: I am still sticking with my ancestry, which is based on information in CP, considered a very reliable source, though no source is perfect. I tend to want to stick up for the Norse "legends" contained in the sagas, believing that because they are easy targets, living in a time when there was no writing, many people deny their existence, holding them to the same standard as say "Charlemagne" or other historic figures who were written about by contemporaries.):

I apologize in advance for the length of this.

Rollo "the Ganger" 1st Duke of NORMANDY
911: Duke of Normandy [Ref: Paget p135]
properly Hrolf; known from his stature as Gongu-Hrolf, 'Rolf the walker' because no horse could carry him [Ref: Watney p740]
name: Rolf the Ganger [Ref: Tapsell p202]
911-932: Duke of Normandy [Ref: Tapsell p202]

born: 846 [Ref: Moriarty p10] abt 846 [Ref: ES II:79, Moriarty p11, Watney #740], parents: [Ref: Moriarty p10, Moriarty p11, Paget p135, Watney #740]

married Poppa 886: danish wife [Ref: Moriarty p10] first and third wives of Rollo, repudiated but afterward remarried after 919 [Ref: Paget p135], names: [Ref: Henry Project citing (Eric Christiansen, ed. & trans., Dudo of St. Quentin, History of the Normans (The Boydell Press, Woodbridge, Suffolk, 1998), Book ii Chapter 16 p38-9; Keats-Rohan, K. S. B., "Poppa of Bayeux and her Family", The American Genealogist 72 (1997), 187-204), Moriarty p11, p226, 39 Tompsett, Wurts p422]

married Gisele of France 912: [Ref: ES II:79, Paget p135]

died: 933 [Ref: ES II:75new] 927 [Ref: Watney 740] 931 [Ref: ES II:79, Moriarty p10, Moriarty p11] 932 [Ref: Paget p135, Tapsell p202] 931 [Ref: Wurts p422]

Rolf, known to his Frankish posterity as Rollo, was probably born of Norwegian stock, being the son of Rognvald, Earl of More, and before his formal establishment in Gaul he had a long career as a Viking, raiding not only in France but also, as it seems, in Scotland and Ireland. In 911, having entered Gaul afresh, perhaps by way of the Loire valley, he was defeated in a pitched battle outside the walls of of Chartres, and it was after this that he and his followers were given lands by the emperor in the valley of the lower Seine. Whether this famous grant of lands and recognition was made (as tradition later asserted) after a formal interview between Charles [King Charles III the Simple of France] and Rolf at Saint-Claire-sur Epte is questionable, and the application of the term 'treaty' to these arrangements is undoubtedly too precise. What, however, is certain is that before 918 Rolf and his followers already held considerable lands in this region, and that they had been formally confirmed in possession of them by the emperor. Equally certain is that in token of the new position he was henceforth to occupy in Gaul, Rolf accepted baptism at the hands of the archbishop of Rouen. [Ref: Wm Conqueror p17]

Rollo (later Robert) "of Normandy" Viking leader in France, d. 928×933. Although he is often referred to as the first duke of Normandy, that title is an anachronism. Probably about 911 [see Douglas 426-31], king Charles the Simple of France ceded a district around the city of Rouen to Rollo, which eventually evolved into the duchy of Normandy. He is said to have been baptized in 912, assuming the Christian name Robert [Dudo ii, 30 (p. 50)]. He was still living in 928, when he was holding Eudes, son of Heribert of Vermandois, as a captive [Flodoard's Annals, s.a. 928, see PL 135: 439, van Houts 45], and was probably dead by 933, when his son William was mentioned as leading the Normans [Flodoard's Annals, s.a. 933, see PL 135: 445, van Houts 45]. [Ref: Henry Project] note: the citations Douglas, Dudo, Flodoard, PL & van Houts are further identified in the Bibliography at the bottom of this page...Curt

Since the article by Duglas (sic) [Duglas (sic), David, English Historical review 1942, p417-36] seems to be one of the main secondary sources used by many who support the alleged Norwegian origin of Rollo, a brief discussion of Douglas's article is in order.

I agree with Duglas (sic) that the reference to Rollo as "filio Catilli" by Richer of Rheims can be dismissed. Richer used the generally reliable chronicle of Floodoard as a framework, which he then expanded with much legendary material of dubious value. This Catillus is a significant figure in Richer, but is apparently unknown from other sources, and his legendary nature is evident. The statement that Rollo was the son of Catillus is apparently an attempt by Richer to amplify the fame of Catillus (whose existence is doubful) by giving him a famous son.

Duglas (sic) then outlines the well known saga statements regarding Rollo's supposed identification with Ganger-Rolf, son of Rognvald. To support his claim that "Rollo" is an acceptable Latin form for "Hrolfr", Duglas (sic) brings forward a single charter [a charter of Richard II for St. Quen, which predated Dudo and the other later sources, mentions the _atavus Ralphus_ of the Duke] which reads "atavus Rolphus" (not Ralphus) which appears to be referring to Rollo (p.421). However, as Duglas (sic) admits, the charter itself is not above suspicion. Another example mentioned in a footnote is a certain Turstinus fillius Rolv who was apparently the same person as a Turstinus filius Rollonis. This is a very small sample to make the claim that Rollo was a Latin form for Rolf. Just as likely is the possibility that the names Rollo and Ralph were confused in a couple of manuscripts. Since Ralph was such a common name in Normandy and England, we should see a large number of examples of "Rollo" and "Ralph" being used as the same name, if they were in fact the same. Since the number of examples which Douglas was able to produce is so small, it is more likely that some sort of copying mistake was made on the above examples, in which the uncommon name Rollo was accidently replaced by the extremely common (and similar) Ralph. Important negative evidence is not given, for Douglas never mentions that there is a Norse name "Hrollaug" for which "Rollo" is an obvious Latinized form. Since the sagas give Rognvald of More two clearly different sons named Hrollaug and Hrolf, it would be difficult to argue that Hrollaug and Hrolf are supposed to be the same name. The main other piece of evidence Douglas gives for accepting the saga account is the supposed confirmation of a saga statement about Granger-Rolf in the contemporary records. The following statement by Ari is quoted: "Another son of Othere (he says) was Helge. He harried in Scotland and won there as his booty Nithbeorg, daughter of King Beolan and of Kathleen, daughter of Ganger-Rolf." Duglas (sic) then reads between the lines, and states that since Kathleen is a Celtin name, her mother would almost certainly be a Christian. He then turns to the nearly contemporary "Lament for the Death of William Longsword", which states that William was born outside France of a Christian mother at a time when his father was still pagan. He then states: "The suggestion of the Landnamabok is thus confirmed by an epic poem composed in Gaul in the tenth century. The fact would seem to be a powerful, if not a conclusive, argument in favor of the identity of Rollo with Ganger-Rolf." The first sentence in the above quote is completely false. There is not a single detail in the quote from Ari which is confirmed by the statement in "Lament for the death ..." This argument used by Duglas (sic), in which he deduces an additional statement not in the original, so that there is something which can be "confirmed" is unacceptable. The fact that Douglas would refer to such an argument as "powerful" only serves to emphasize how weak his argument really is. [Ref: Stewart Baldwin 7 Dec 1996] (Note: "Duglas" referred to above is actually spelled Douglas. David C. Douglas, Fellow of the British Academy, Emeritus Professor of History, University of Bristol, Ford's Lecturer to the University of Oxford & editor of a series of studies of the English monarchs...Curt)

According to the Orkneying Saga (late twelfth century), Rognvald, jarl of More in Norway, was the father (among others) of a certain Hrolf, who became the first duke of Normandy, and is therefore intended to be identified with the historical Viking Rollo, who appears in the contemporary Frankish annals of the tenth century. Those who accept this view base their argument on these late Icelandic sources. In my opinion, the Icelandic sources are worthless for early Norman history, and should be rejected as a source for Rollo's parentage. Some of the basic reasons for this opinion are as follows:

1. The Icelandic sources are both late and foreign when it comes to Norman history. Other than the very well known fact that William the Conqueror was descended from the dukes of Normandy, the Icelandic sources do not offer a single fact about early Norman history which can be corroborated in the contemporary continental sources. In fact, the Icelandic sources say remarkably little about early Norman history, which is suspicious for a source which supposedly knows the origin of Rollo.

2. The Norman sources, which are both native and considerably earlier than the Icelandic sources, tell a completely different story about the origin of Rollo, who is said to be of Danish origin. Even though some of the early Norman sources (such as Dudo) have been criticized for their innacuracy (and for deliberate embellishment), it is still reasonable to suppose that early native sources would be more reliable on the matter of Rollo's origin than late foreign sources.

3. Unfortunately, the early tenth century is not well covered by the Frankish sources. However, even though the Norman sources have clearly embellished and romanticized the material on Rollo, the story of a Danish origin for Rollo fits quite well with what the Frankish sources for the late ninth century (a better covered period) say about the Danish invasions during that earlier period.

4. Contrary to what has been frequently claimed, the names Hrolf and Rollo do not appear to be the same. The Norse name Hrollaug, which is a different name (see #5), is the name which would have "Rollo" as a reasonable Latinization. The claim that "Hrolf" was Latinized as "Rollo" by mistake is unlikely, because the Franks were quite familiar with the name, and a different Viking raider named Hrolf from the ninth century has his name correctly Latinized as "Rodulf" in the contemporary ninth century sources.

5. Fifth, and most important, the Icelandic sources give Rognvald of More several sons two of whom are Hrolf, allegedly the same as the founder of Normandy, and Hrollaug, an early Icelandic settler. First, this shows that Hrolf and Hrollaug were regarded as different names. However, it also causes a big problem in the Icelandic story. If we are to believe the Icelandic account, Hrolf went to Normandy, where he was then known as Rollo/Hrollaug, i.e., the name of Hrolf's brother. If the Icelandic story were true, why would both the Frankish and Norman sources both refer to "Hrolf" by the name of his brother Hrollaug? (Claiming that the Icelandic sources were almost right, and that Rollo of Normandy was the same as Hrollaug son of Rognvald, is not feasible, because Hrollaug's role as an early settler of Iceland clearly marks him as a different person from Rollo of Normandy.) I would like to see this problem explained away by someone supporting position that Rollo was Rognvald's son. By the way, this last point (#5) has, to my knowledge, not been mentioned before (except by me in previous postings on the same subject), and I therefore have an obvious personal interest in knowing if this particular point has been mentioned by others. If point #5 has already been made somewhere else in the literature, I would be interested in having the reference.

Thus, in my opinion, for the reasons given above, Rollo of Normandy was was probably not the son of Rognvald of More, and his parentage should be
regarded as unknown. [Ref: Stewart Baldwin 16 Mar 1998]

also known as Hrolf or Rollon, 1st Duke of Normandy from 911 to 927, called also Rolf the Walker, because, being so tall, he preferred to go afoot rather than ride the little Norwegian horses. Also shown as Rollon, Row, or Robert Originally a Norse Viking, he was noted for strength and martial prowess.

It is more likely that the title "Duke" is a tenth or eleventh century construct, as even the title count was not introduced until later documents, usually refered as count of Rouen. Neither Rollo or his son William Longsword issued many written instruments - certainly none that survive in the original.

Rollo the Dane, also known as Hrolf or Rollon, 1st Duke of Normandy from 911 to 927, called also Rolf the Walker, because, being so tall, he preferred to go afoot rather than ride the little Norwegian horses. Also shown as Rollon, Row, or Robert. Originally a Norse Viking, he was noted for strength and martial prowess. In the reign of Charles II, the Bald, he sailed up the Seine River and took Rouen, which he kept as a base of operations. He gained a number of victories over the Franks, and extorted the cession of the province since called Normandy. By the famous treaty which Charles the Bald and Rollo signed the latter agreed to adopt Christianity. He was born in 846 and died in 932, and was buried in the Cathedral at Rouen. He married (1) Gisla, daughter of Charles the Simple, King of France, no issue; (2) Lady Poppa de Valois, (means puppet or little doll), daughter of Pepin de Senlis de Valois, Count Berenger (Berenarius) of Bretagne, Count of Bayeux, and sister of Bernard of St. Liz (Senlis), also recorded as Berenger, Count of Bayeux. Rollo lived with her for some time before the marriage. [Ref: McBride2]

Dudo (contemporary with Rollo's grandson Richard I and informed by Richard's half-brother) states that Rollo was a Dane and had a brother whose name (I forget the form Dudo used) can be interpreted as Gorm or Guthorm. He portrays him as an extremely active individual rampaging, sacking, looting, and then being bought off by the French king to stop other vikings from doing the same, being baptized as Robert.

The Orkneyinga saga, which dates from a good bit after the time of William the Conqueror (great-grandson of Richard I and great-great-great-grandson of Rollo) says that the Jarl of Orkney had a brother Hrolf the Walker, who conquered Normandy and was ancestor of the Norman kings of England. It explains the nickname as indicating that he was so fat he could not ride a horse. He is a Norwegian, and had numerous brothers (including, oddly enough, one named Rollo), but none named Gorm or Guthorm.

Now there are no absolute answers here, but one thing is clear. The accounts of Dudo and of the Orkneyinga saga are completely incompatable. Every single detail, other than that the man conquered Normandy, - name, ethnicity, physical characteristics, siblings, are all different. Obviously one of these sources is in error. Both contain material which is demonstrably false, and which has been used in the past to discredit them. However, Dudo probably actually knew people who knew Rollo, and it is difficult to come up with a motive for falsification of these details (why bother substituting danish for norwegian, for example) while the Orkneyinga saga author had no such direct connection, and furthermore had motive to invent such an ancient connection, to further glorify the family are the center of his tale. Still, nothing of this sort is certain, but given what each of the sources have to say, you have to give the nod to Dudo, which would mean that Rollo would not be identical to the Hrolf of the saga, and the claim that he was the founder of Normandy must rest on some sort of mistaken identity or intentional forgery. [Ref: TAF 27 Feb 2002]

Hrólfr (son of Rognvaldr) is, often (but dubiously) identified with Rollo of Normandy [Ref: Henry Project]
Below is from the Henry Project, compiled by Stewart Baldwin at http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/rollo000.htm
Commentary
Supposed father: Rognvaldr, jarl of Møre.
Supposed mother: Ragnhildr or Hildr.

The origin of Rollo is contraversial. There are several medieval sources which claim to give information about the origin of Rollo, the most widely repeated of which would make him a son of Rognvaldr, jarl of Møre by Ragnhildr or Hildr. As can be seen from the following brief notices, the various primary sources offer very contradictory information about Rollo's origin.

The earliest author to attribute an explicit origin to Rollo was Richer of Rheims, writing between 996 and 998, who called Rollo the son of another Viking invader of France named Catillus (presumably representing the Norse name Ketil) [Richer i, 28 (see PL 138: 35)]. Since Catillus appears to be a legendary individual, this account has generally been discredited, probably correctly [see Douglas 420-1].

According to Dudo of St. Quentin (writing early 11th century), author of the earliest history of the Normans, Rollo had a younger brother named Gurim, presumed to be the familiar name Gorm. Dudo states that Rollo and Gurim were sons of a man who held many lands in "Dacia" (Dudo's word for Denmark, following other authors), and that after the death of the (unnamed) father of Rollo and Gurim, the king of Dacia fought against the sons, killing Gurim and driving Rollo out [Dudo ii, 2-4 (pp. 26-7)]. Dudo later refers to duke Richard I as being related to a "king of Dacia" named Haigrold [Dudo iv, 84-88 (pp. 114-20 passim)], who must have been the Viking raider of France of that name [Flodoard's Annals, s.a. 945, see PL 135: 463-4, van Houts 51], and not king Harald "Bluetooth" of Denmark. Note that Gurim cannot be the famous Gorm "the Old" of Denmark, who survived Rollo by many years.
William of Malmesbury (early 12th century) appears to be the earliest author to attribute a Norwegian origin to Rollo [WM ii, 5 (p. 125)].

As is well known, the Orkneyinga Saga (late twelfth century) [OrkS 4 (pp. 29-30)], followed by other Icelandic sources (such as the well known Heimskringla and Landnámabók), gives Rollo the name Hrólfr, and make him a son of Rognvaldr, jarl of Møre, and brother of (among others) jarl Torf-Einarr of the Orkneys [OI 1: 187]. Earlier sources, such as Ari's Íslendingabók (early to middle 12th century), mention Rognvald of Møre and his son Hrollaugr who settled in Iceland, but not the supposed connection to the dukes of Normandy [Ari 49, 61]. A poem allegedly written by Einar mentions his brothers, including a Hrólfr, but does not connect Hrólfr to Normandy, and does not name a Gorm among the brothers. (See ...Rognvaldr for more on this poem.)

Historia Gruffud vab Kenan (ca. 1250), apparently a Welsh translation and/or revision of an earlier Latin life of Gruffudd ap Cynan, gives Haraldr Hárfagri of Norway ("Harald Harfagyr") a brother named Rodulf (i.e., the Latin form of Hrólfr) who is called the founder of Normandy [HGK, 3-4]. However, this is evidently a corrupt version of the Scandinavian version, and the suggestion that Rollo was a brother of Haraldr Hárfagri need not be given any credence.

The most prominent argument of the case for accepting the Scandinavian account that Rollo was the same person as Hrólfr, son of Rognvaldr of Møre, was given by D. C. Douglas [Douglas 419-23], and those who accept this identification have generally followed the same arguments. On the other side, arguments against the identification were given by Viggo Starcke in his book Denmark in World History [Starcke 222-7].

Most of the argument of Douglas consists of accepting the tale of the sagas and rejecting evidence from the Norman sources which contradict the saga version, while explaining away the problems (on which more below). The evidence which Douglas puts forward as "a powerful, if not a conclusive, argument in favor of the identity of Rollo with Ganger-Rolf" concerns a passage in Landnáamabók that refers to a daughter of Gongu-Hrólfr:
"... Annarr son Óttars vas Helge; hann herjaðe á Skottland, ok feck þar at herfange Niðbiorgo, dóttor Beolans konungs ok Caðlínar, dóttor Gongo-Hrólfs" (Another son of Óttarr was Helge. He harried in Scotland, and won there as his booty Niðbjorg, daughter of king Beolan and Caðlín, daughter of Gongu-Hrólfr.) [OI 1: 66-7]
This passage, which Douglas attributed to "Ari the Learned" (who may or may not have been the author), is then compared with a passage from the nearly contemporary Plaintsong of Rollo's son William "Longsword" which was written soon after William's death:

"Hic in orbe transmarino natus patre
in errore paganorum permanente
matre quoque consignata alma fide
sacra fuit lotus unda"

(Born overseas from a father who stuck to the pagan error and from a mother who was devoted to the sweet religion, he was blessed with the holy chrism.)
[Douglas 422 (Latin); van Houts 41 (English translation)]

After explaining that the two stories are consistent with one another, Douglas then state that "[t]he suggestion of the Landnámabók is thus confirmed by an epic poem composed in Gaul in the tenth century." While it is true that the two accounts as they stand are consistent with each other and with the claim that Rollo and Gongu-Hrólfr were the same man (ignoring all other evidence), it is surely a gross overstatement to claim that the Plaintsong "confirms" the other account, for there is not a single statement in the passage from Landnámabók that is confirmed by the Plaintsong. This is a clear case of circular reasoning, for without first assuming that Rollo and Gongu-Hrólfr were the same man, there is no evidence that the two passages have any relation whatsoever. Douglas's case is further undermined by the fact that another source [Laxdœla Saga chapter 32, see OI 1: 246] makes Niðbjorg's mother Caðlín a daughter of Gongu-Hrólfr, son of Oxna-Þórir, directly contradicting the thesis that Caðlín was supposedly a granddaughter of Rognvaldr of Møre. Yet, Douglas apparently regarded this as the strongest part of his argument.

There are three main strands of evidence (somewhat related to each other) against the identification of Rollo with Hrólfr son of Rognvaldr:

1. The discrepancies between the Norman and Icelandic sources.
Among other contradictions, the Norman sources give Rollo a brother named Gurim, while the Icelandic sources give Hrólfr several brothers, none of them named Gormr (the presumed Old-Norse form for Gurim). Although both of the sources have their problems, earlier native sources would seem to have a higher priority than later foreign sources. While many elements of the Dudo's account are clearly legendary, there appears to be no clear motive on the part of Dudo (writing less than a century after Rollo's death) to invent a younger brother for Rollo who is then immediately killed off.

2. The general unreliability of Norse source for the early tenth century.
For the period under consideration, i.e., the early ninth century, the sagas have a poor record for reliability, even for Scandinavian history. For example, consider the following words of Peter Sawyer (written with regard to a different matter, but true in general), a well known expert on early Viking history: "... These sagas cannot, however, be accepted as reliable sources for the tenth century. The only trustworthy evidence for the tenth century in those sagas are the contemporary verses around which the saga writers wove their tales." [Sawyer 42] None of these verses confirm the identity of Rollo and Hrólfr. The suspicion is made even larger by the fact that the Icelandic sources show no knowledge of Norman history other than the fact (well known throughout Europe at the time) that William the Conqueror was a descendant of the dukes of Normandy.

3. Rollo and Hrólfr appear to be different names.
The natural Latinization of the name Hrólfr would be Radulfus or Rodulfus. Yet, the Frankish and Norman sources consistently refer to the founder of Normandy as Rollo. Since these sources also include numerous individuals named Rodulfus, and consistently separate the two names, it appears that the names were regarded as different. Douglas explained this by suggesting a hypothetical hypochoristic form "Hrolle" of the name "Hroðwulf" as the basis for the name Rollo, and provides a single charter in which Rollo is referred to as "Rolphus" as evidence that the names were the same, acknowledging, however, that the charter itself was "not above suspicion." If the names were really regarded as the same, it would be expected that more convincing evidence to this effect could be offered.

Personally, I am inclined to believe that the identification of Hrólfr and Rollo has no basis in fact, that it was likely to have been invented by a saga writer who wanted to give the jarls of Orkney some famous relatives (i.e., the kings of England), and that whatever the confusing Norman sources say are probably about the closest we are going to get to Rollo's origin. However, based on the surviving evidence, it is not possible to come to any definitive conclusion one way or the other, and Rollo's parentage should be listed as "unknown" unless further evidence becomes available.

Supposed additional child:
Caðlin (Kathleen), said by Norse sources to have married a certain king Beolan, who is otherwise unidentified. As discussed above, the evidence for her is less than satisfactory.]

Bibliography
Ari = Halldór Hermannsson, ed. & trans., The Book of Icelanders (Íslendingabók) by Ari Thorgilsson (Islandica, vol. 20, Ithaca, 1930).
Dudo = Eric Christiansen, ed. & trans., Dudo of St. Quentin, History of the Normans (The Boydell Press, Woodbridge, Suffolk, 1998). Citation is by book and chapter of Dudo's work, with the page number in parentheses.
Douglas = D. C. Douglas, "Rollo of Normandy", English Historical Review 57 (1942), 417-36.
Flodoard's Annals = See PL 135 (Latin), and van Houts (2000), 42-51 (English translation of excerpts relating to the Normans).
GJ = Guillaume de Jumièges, Gesta Normannorum Ducum, as edited in Elisabeth van Houts, ed. & trans., The Gesta Normannorum Ducum of William of Jumièges, Orderic Vitalis and Robert of Torigni, 2 vols., (Oxford, 1992). Citation is by book and chapter of Guillaume's work, with the volume and page number of the edition by van Houts in parentheses.
HGK = D. Simon Evans, ed., Historia Gruffudd vab Kenan (Caerdydd, 1977).
Keats-Rohan = Keats-Rohan, K. S. B., "Poppa of Bayeux and her Family", The American Genealogist 72 (1997), 187-204.
OI = Gudbrand Vigfusson and F. York Powell, ed. & trans., Origines Islandicae, 2 vols. (Oxford, 1905).
OrkS = Herman Pálsson & Paul Edwards, ed. & trans., Orkneyinga Saga (London, 1978). Citation is by chapter, with the page number in parentheses.
PL = Migne's Patrologiæ (Latin)
Richer = Richer of Rheims (see PL 138 for the text, in Latin). Citation is by book and chapter of Richer's work, with the page number in parentheses.
Sawyer = Peter Sawyer, 'The Last Scandinavian Kings of York', Northern History 31 (1995), 39-44.
Starcke = Viggo Starcke, Denmark in World History (Philadelphia, 1962, a translation of the Danish edition of 1946 by Frank Noel Stagg, Ingeborg Nixon, and Mrs. Elmer Harp).
van Houts = Elisabeth van Houts, ed. & trans., The Normans in Europe (Manchester & New York, 2000) [gives English translations of many of the primary sources relevant to early Norman history]
WM = J. A. Giles, ed. & trans., William of Malmesbury's Chronicle of the Kings of England (London, 1889). Citation is by book and chapter of William's work, with the page number in parentheses.

Regards,
Curt
Rollo the Viking was granted land in Northwestern France in 911 AD by
Charles the Simple, King of France. Charles hoped that Rollo would defend
his new land, barring the length of the Seine River to other Viking
groups. Rollo remained faithful to Charles and he and his son quickly
expanded the original land grant at the expense of neighboring French
lords and guarded it well against Viking rivals. Even before Rollo's
grandson Richard took over the domain in 942, the descendants of the
Vikings had accepted Christianity, intermarried with the local population
and adopted the French language. Already they were being called Normans,
a contraction of Northmen, and there territory became known as Normandy.
Richard's great-grandson was King William I, conqueror of England. Rollo
was also known as "Rolf."
picture

Gislahaire , King of Burgundy




Husband Gislahaire , King of Burgundy

           Born: Abt 400
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 


         Father: Godomar , King of Burgundy (Abt 0380-0437)
         Mother: 


       Marriage: 




Wife

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 



Children
1 M Gundicus , King of Burgundy

           Born: Abt 410 - Worms
     Christened: 
           Died: 436
         Buried: 




picture
Lleuver Mawr and Gladys




Husband Lleuver Mawr

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: 181
         Buried: 


         Father: Coel (      -      )
         Mother: 


       Marriage: 




Wife Gladys

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 


         Father: 
         Mother: Euregen (      -      )





Children
1 F Gladys , the Younger

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 
         Spouse: Cadvan , of Cambia (      -      )




picture
Theodon I , Duke of Bavaria and Gleisnod , Duchess of Bavaria




Husband Theodon I , Duke of Bavaria

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: 722
         Buried: 


         Father: Garibald II , Duke of Bavaria (      -0660)
         Mother: Geila , Princess of Friuli (      -      )


       Marriage: 

   Other Spouse: Regintrude , Princess of Austrasia (      -      )




Wife Gleisnod , Duchess of Bavaria

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 



Children
1 M Theodon II , Duke of Bavaria

           Born: 
     Christened: 
           Died: Dec 716
         Buried: 
         Spouse: Folchaide , Duchess of Bavaria (      -      )




picture
Raoul I De Beaumont, Vicomte Du Mans and Godehilde




Husband Raoul I De Beaumont, Vicomte Du Mans 6

            AKA: Raoul I De Beaumont-Maine Vicomte Du Mans
           Born: Abt 935 - Le Mans, Sarthe, Maine/Pays-DE-La-Loire, France
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 


         Father: Robert Buzancais De Beaumont, Seigneur De Tour (Abt 0905-      ) 6
         Mother: 


       Marriage: 




Wife Godehilde 6

           Born: Abt 947 - France
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 



Children
1 M Raoul II De Beaumont, Vicomte Du Maine 6 25 26

            AKA: Raoul II De Beaumont Vicomte Du Maine, Raoul III De St. Suzanne Vicomte Du Maine 25
           Born: 965 - Le Mans, Sarthe, Maine/Pays-DE-La-Loire, France
     Christened: 
           Died: After 1013 - Ste-Suzanne, Mayenne, Maine/Pays-DE-La-Loire, France
         Buried: 
         Spouse: Godehilde (Godehelt) De Belleme (Abt 0968-      ) 6 27



2 F Alpais De Beaumont 6

            AKA: Alpais De Beaumont-Maine
           Born: Abt 985 - Le Mans, Sarthe, Maine/Pays-DE-La-Loire, France
     Christened: 
           Died: 
         Buried: 



picture

Sources


1 Microsoft Encarta 1994 ed.

2 Tauté, Anne. "The Kings and Queens of Great Britain" pub by Elm TreeBooks/Hamish Hamilton Ltd. Great Britain.//.

3 Ancestors of John Whitcomb.

4 Ancestors of Roger Grenville prepared from GEDCOM buell001.zip by Matt & Ellie Buell 05/25 /95, downloaded from AOL 06.

5 Knox, Robert John Anderson and Tanner, Danielle. AOL user BobNDani. Fileuploaded on AOL "Tanner/Courtenay/Larsson/9500+" on Feb 2, 1995. File Name: knox0001.ged wsx.

6 Jim Weber (https://myaccount.rootsweb.com/publicprofile?mn=jimweber110&kurl=http:%2F%2Fwc%2Erootsweb%2Eancestry%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Figm%2Ecgi%3Fdb%3Djweber%26id%3DI03403%26op%3DGED).

7 Burke's Peerage & Baronetage, 106th Edition, Charles Mosley Editor-in-Chief, 1999, cxiv.

8 Encyclopedia Britannica, Treatise on, Robert I.

9 Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999, 212e-22.

10 Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000, III:164.

11 Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000, III:164, III:427.

12 The Plantagenet Ancestry, by William Henry Turton, 1968, 18.

13 v10t2107.ftw.

14 Dee, Danielle Marie. AOL user Dani Dee. File uploaded to AOL "VanArsdale/Crawford/Hayes" (danidee.zip) on Nov 29, 1994.

15 Encyclopedia Britannica, Treatise on, Otto I HRE.

16 Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999, 142-17.

17 The Plantagenet Ancestry, by William Henry Turton, 1968, 14, 21.

18 Encyclopedia Britannica, Treatise on, Henry I.

19 Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999, 50-19, 53-19, 101-19.

20 Freeman, Marsha Colleen (Scully) (Rec# 435). "Buell Genealogy" pub. 1 Dec1978. Chart #34.

21 Encyclopedia Britannica, Treatise on, Rollo.

22 Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999, 121e-18.

23 Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000, X:Appendix A:4.

24 Slocombe, George. "William the Conqueror" pub. 1961 by G. P. Putnam'sSons. New York.

25 Leo's Genealogics Website (Leo van de Pas), www.genealogics.org, Raoul III de Sainte-Suzanne, Vicomte du Maine.

26 Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com, Ed Mann, 6 Feb 1999.

27 Leo's Genealogics Website (Leo van de Pas), www.genealogics.org, Godehelt de Belleme.


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