Ancestors of Russell Owen HJELM

Thirtieth Generation

(Continued)

831791302. Dru De BAALON was born about 1052 in Ballon, Maine, France. He died. Dru married Mrs. Dru 1052 BAALON. [Parents]

831791303. Mrs. Dru 1052 BAALON was born about 1052. She died.

[Child]

831791304. Gilbert Fitz Richard De CLARE Earl Hertford was born before 1066 in Clare, Suffolk, England. He died before 1117 in Of Tonbridge, Kent, England & Cardigan, Wales and was buried in Lord Of Tunbridge, Founded Priory Of Clare, Lord Of Cardigan. Gilbert married Adeliza De CLAREMONT on 1090 in England. [Parents]

Gilbert, feudal Lord of Clare, Suffolk and Cardigan, whose father Richard was son of the Count of Brionne, of an illegitimate line of the Dukes of Normandy).  [Burke's Peerage]

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Gilbert de Tonebruge, who resided at Tonebruge and inherited all his father's lands in England, joined in the rebellion of Robert de Mowbray, Earl of Northumberland, but observing the king (William Rufus) upon the point of falling into an ambuscade, he relented, sought pardon, and saved his royal master. We find him subsequently, however, again in rebellion in the same reign and fortifying and losing his castle at Tunbridge. He m. in 1113, Adeliza, dau. of the Earl of Cleremont, and had issue, Richard, his successor, Gilbert, Walter, Hervey, and Baldwin. Gilbert de Tonebruge, who was a munificent benefactor to the church, was s. by his eldest son, Richard de Clare. [Sir Bernard Burke, Dormant and Extinct Peerages, Burke's Peerage, London, 1883, p. 119, Clare, Lords of Clare, Earls of Hertford, Earls of Gloucester]

Gilbert m. Adeliza, dau, of the Earl of Claremont, and was father of Richard de Clare, Earl of Hertford, and Gilbert de Clare, created Earl of Pembroke. [Sir Bernard Burke, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages, Burke's Peerage, Ltd., London, England, 1883, p. 230, Giffard, Earls of Buckingham]

831791305. Adeliza De CLAREMONT was born about 1072 in Clermont-En-Beauvais, Oise, Picardy, France. She died Unknown in England. [Parents]

There seems to be a serious error in line 246b-24 of Ancestral Roots, which has this Adeliza marrying Robert de Condet d. 1141, after her marriage to Gilbert Fitz Richard.  This does not agree with any other lines, which have Robert de Condet's wife as Adeliza dau. of Ranulph le Meschin, Earl of Chester.  The error in generation 24 is shown in the next generation of this line (246b-25) which has Adeliza dau. of Ranulph marrying first Richard Fitz Gilbert and then Robert de Condet.  I believe this (generation 25) is correct.

[Child]

831791308. Hasculf De ST. HILARY was born about 1067 in Harcourt, Eure, Normandy, France. He died before 1130. Hasculf married Mrs. Hasculf 1067 ST. HILARY.

831791309. Mrs. Hasculf 1067 ST. HILARY was born about 1080. She died.

[Child]

831791312. Bardolf Of RAVENSWORTH was born about 1045 in Brittany, France. He died 1120 in Ravensworth, Richmond, North Riding Yorkshire, England. Bardolf married Miss De ALSELYN. [Parents]

Although the surname of Fitz-Hugh was not appropriated to this family before the time of Edward III, it had enjoyed consideration from the period of the Conquest, when its ancestor, Bardolph, was Lord of Ravensworth, with divers other manors, in Richmondshire. This Bardolph assumed in his old age the habit of a monk in the Abbey of St. Mary, at York, to which he gave the churches of Patrick Brompton and Ravenswath, in pure alms. He was s. by his son and heir, Akaris Fitz-Bardolph. [Sir Bernard Burke, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages, Burke's Peerage, Ltd., London, England, 1883, p. 207, FitzHugh, Barons FitzHugh]

Note: AR states that Bardolf was illegitimate son of Eudes.

831791313. Miss De ALSELYN was born about 1050 in England. She died.

[Child]

831791320. Osbert Seigneur De CONDE was born about 1057 in Conde, Hainault, Belgium. He died Dec. [Parents]

[Child]

831791322. William De CHESNEY Lord Of Caenby was born about 1070 in Of Glentham & Caenby, Lincolnshire, England. He died Dec. William married Mrs. William 1070 CHESNEY. [Parents]

William de Chesney, lord of Caenby and Glentham, co. Lincoln.  [Magna Charta Sureties]

831791323. Mrs. William 1070 CHESNEY died.

[Child]

831791324. Ranulph De MESCHINES Viscount Of Bayeux was born 1050 in Bayeux, Normandy, France. He died 1129 in Bayeux, , Normandy. Ranulph married Margaret D' AVRANCHES about 1069 in Normandy, France. [Parents]

Name Suffix: [VISCOUNT DE BAY
Ancestral File Number: 91SN-6M

831791325. Margaret D' AVRANCHES was born about 1054 in Avranches, Normandy, France. She died.

Margaret 1050 Avranches, Normandy, France. She 1050 Avranches, Normandy, France. [Parents]

Ancestral File Number: 91SN-7S

Ancestral File Number: 91SN-7S

[Child]

831791326. Turold Sheriff Of LINCOLN was born about 1015 in Coventry, Warwickshire, England (Mercia). He died before 1079 in Buckinghamshire, England. Turold married Alvarissa MALET. [Parents]

831791327. Alvarissa MALET was born about 1045 in Graville, Normandy, France. She died and was buried in Only One Source For This Person/Relationship @Check Ancestry. [Parents]

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copied from soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup:
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In a message dated 10/7/98 11:43:15 AM, allenk@pacbell.net writes:

<>

If this is _not_ the case, I surely want to know. I do not have a copy at my office, but my notes say the marriages of Aelfgar are found in Faris, TPA, 140:8i, 191:9, 270:9ii, 210:8.  Also Weis, MCS, 4th ed., 12-11. Ist wife Elgiva, d/o Ethelred the Unready, issue: Agatha m 1) Harald 2) Griffith ap Llewelyn, Morkere, Bouchard, Eadwine. Wife 2:  Alvarissa Malet, d/o William Malet and Elise Crispin. Issue: Lucy, m Ivo Talyboys.

Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION

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also from soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup:
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In a message dated 9/30/98 12:38:45 PM, taf2@po.cwru.edu writes:

<< This little article by Katherine Keats-Rohan summarizes and builds upon a century's worth of progress on the issue.  While the "antecessores" clause is subject to some interpretation, this theory is preferable to the spurious and problematic Crowland charter. >>

I have received some wonderful information, both online and offline on this subject.

I see that everyone is tending to accept that Lucy is not Godiva's granddaughter and I appreciate the reasoning behind it.  Yet, two things puzzle me greatly and pull me away from this modern interpretation. One is the naming patterns in the following generations.

(1) 1 Leofric III --Lord Coventry, Earl Mercia, Leicester 1
 b. 0975, of Mercia, England
 d. 31 Aug 1057, Bromley, Staffordshire, England
& Godiva --Lady of Lincoln 2
 b. abt 0980, of Mercia, England
 d. 10 Sep 1067
 m. bef 1030
(2) 1a Alfgar III --Earl Mercia* 3
 d. 1062
& Alvarissa Malet
(3) 1a Lucy Talboys* 4
& Ivo Talboys --Earl of Anjou 5
(4) 1 William de Tailbois
 b. of Lancaster, England
& Margaret Tailbois
(5) 1 Goditha Tailbois/Lancaster & Gilbert de Lancaster --4th Baron Kendal

Notice that Lucy's granddaughter is named Goditha.  Why, if Lucy is not Godiva's granddaughter, would her grandchild be named after Godiva? It is such a common naming pattern. If Lucy's parents were Turold the Sheriff and a daughter of William Malet, as suggested by Katherine Keats-Rohan, there would be no relationship at all with Godiva and no reason for the name to appear in the person of Lucy's granddaughter.  I realize that the name is not spelled the same, but certainly it is the same name.

Neither Lucy's birth date nor death date are known. Leofric d in 1057 at age 85. Godiva died ten years later at age 87. Their son Aelfgar died in 1062, five years before her mother. If Lucy was 15 when she had her first child, she would have been born around  1047. She would have been only 19 at the time of the Conquest.  There are no chronological problems.

_The Complete Peerage_ says: "The link between Lucy and Aelfgar is the manor of Spalding, County Lincoln, which was held by Aelfgar before the Conquest and by Lucy's first husband, Ives Taillebois (in her right), at the time of Domesday. No close family connection between Aelfgar and Lucy is mentioned in any contemporary document, and chronology is opposed to the relationship of father and daughter. Moreover, the only known children of Aelfgar are Edwin, Morcar and Aeldgitha, wife of Harold, and consequently the passing of the manor of Spalding cannot be held to justify the inference that Aelfgar (a) was father of Lucy."

The second thing that bothers me is the land transfers.  It is the basis of the Keats-Rohan argument.  But if Lucy's father was Aelfgar III who married Alvarissa Malet daughter of William Mallet and William married the daughter of Thorold the Sheriff, then the naming patterns are consistent and the land transactions make sense.

Complete Peerage: "Other manors of Thorold which passed to Lucy are Belchford, Scamblesby, Stenigot, Tetney and Donington. (a) Lucy also held Alkborough, (b) which had belonged in the time of the Confessor to William Malet, (c) father of Lucy's uncle Robert Malet. If Lucy's mother was William Malet's daughter, this may have been her maritagium; and the fact that Thorold gave tithes in this place (d) has been advanced as evidence that he was her husband."

Though I accept that the evidence is unclear, I can find no more weight to one argument than the other.

- Ken

Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION

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also from soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup:
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In a message dated 10/7/98 2:32:24 AM, paul@pblay.force9.co.uk writes:

<>

There is more than one Thorold. I am willing to accept the traditional view that he was actually Godiva's father and sheriff of Lincoln as recorded by Faris in _The Plantagenet Ancestry_. After all the electrons 'spilled' here and all the ink 'spilled' elsewhere, this is still befuddled.

This is one of the last puzzles I was trying to conclude before actually printing THE ANCESTRY OF ELIZABETH OF YORK.  Marlyn Lewis, the compiler, has kept the ancestry along the traditional lines as recorded by Faris and Turton, i.e, Lucy's father is the son of Leofric and Lady Godiva. Even though some modernists believe that the Leofric connection is invalid, I still tend to think that it makes more sense than the alternatives, therefore I am solving the problem by noting that the connection is disputed and printing the traditional information anyway.

There are several reasons for so doing:

CP: "The link between Lucy and Aelfgar is the manor of Spalding, County Lincoln, which was held by Aelfgar before the Conquest and by Lucy's first husband, Ives Taillebois (in her right), at the time of Domesday. Other manors of Thorold which passed to Lucy are Belchford, Scamblesby, Stenigot, Tetney and Donington. (a) Lucy also held Alkborough, (b) which had belonged in the time of the Confessor to William Malet, (c) father of Lucy's uncle Robert Malet. If Lucy's mother was William Malet's daughter, this may have been her maritagium; and the fact that Thorold gave tithes in this place (d) has been advanced as evidence that he was her husband... the only known children of Aelfgar are Edwin, Morcar and Aeldgitha, wife of Harold, and consequently the passing of the manor of Spalding cannot be held to justify the inference that Aelfgar was father of Lucy. "

The Croyland Charter is dismissed because it is a late or forged charter--not quite contemporary--rewritten by the clergy to justify their possession of lands, as is the case with most forged charters. That does not necessarily mean that the genealogical information is absolutely false, but it does mean "stop, look and listen." Nor does that fact that Lucy was not mentioned as Aelfgar's daughter mean that she was absolutely not his daughter. The only daughter mentioned was Agatha (Aeldgitha) who married Harold II--killed at Hastings and she married a very famous figure. This is neither proof nor disproof that Lucy was her sister.

Regarding the confusion about the Lancasters, it seems that the monks were confused and had the wrong information. "To this the monkish chroniclers have added the fiction that he was the son of Ketel, son of Eldred, son of Ivo Taillebois (Mon Angl iii 553 & Cockersands Cartulary, Chethem Soc (New Series) xxxix 305), whereas he was almost, if not quite, contemporary with Ivo."

Richard Borthwick wrote:  "If Lucy had a son by Ivo, presumably he would have been heir to her lands and thence to the Lancaster family. From what I can recall this is not what happened." An answer may be that the son, William, died before his sister Beatrice. Then he would have been capable of inheriting only a very small (4x8) plot of land.  Beatrice,  married Ribald, the illegitimate son of Eudes. Also, Ivo had at least one--if not more--illegitimate children. William may not have been Lucy's offspring, but still a son of Ivo.

Faris has Aelfgar III married to Alvarissa Malet, daughter of William Malet.  Though Alfgar died in 1061, before the conquest, this marriage could still be valid. Their daughter, according to this reconstruction, was Lucy.

Though this scenario seems to make the most sense to me, it will likely never be proven. Neither will any alternative scenario be proven. For all the revisionist 'ink spilled', and all the trillions of rearranged electrons, no proof is obtainable now or in the future unless the future sees a major archaeological discovery. Therefore, one can let the emotional side have some weight ... and there is an emotional side:

Lady Godiva is one of the most famous of all women in the entire span of history.  The legend of her ride through the village stark naked on a horse has inspired adolescent boys to late night visions for a thousand years.  Each and every one of these boys have become the 'peeping Tom' who could not help but gaze upon that erotic scene.

If Lady Godiva is to remain in the historical record as a Plantagenet ancestor, then the scenario of her family connections cannot--and should not be--summarily discarded. To do so is a disservice to her memory and the fantasies of young boys  throughout the ages.

Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION

[Child]

831791664. Roger DE BEAUMONT Lord Pont Audemer died 29 Nov 1094. He married Adeline DE MEULAN. [Parents]

831791665. Adeline DE MEULAN died 8 Apr 1081.

[Child]

831792128. Fulk IV "The Rude Count Of Anjou" married Bertrada DE MONTEFORT. [Parents]

831792129. Bertrada DE MONTEFORT is printed as #51617823.

[Child]

831792130. Helias "Count Of Maine" married Agnes Of AQUITAINE.

831792131. Agnes Of AQUITAINE. [Parents]

[Child]

831792136. William (Geoffrey) VI "Guido Duke Of Aquitaine" died 25 Sep 1086 in Chateau De Chize, France. He married Hildegard. [Parents]

831792137. Hildegard "Of Burgundy". [Parents]

[Child]

831792138. William IV Of Toulouse died 1094 in Huscea, Spain. [Parents]

[Child]

831792140. Boso II Viscount Of Chastellerault died 1092. He married Eleanor De Thouars. [Parents]

831792141. Eleanor De Thouars. [Parents]

[Child]

831792142. Bartholomew DE IILSE-BOUCHARD married Gerberga.

831792143. Gerberga.

[Child]

831792148. Vicomte Boson DE TURENNE I De Turenne married Gerberge TERRASSON.

831792149. Gerberge TERRASSON.

[Child]

831792150. Geoffrey DE LA PERCHE II married Beatrice Of Montdidier.

831792151. Beatrice Of Montdidier.

[Child]

831792152. Philip CAPET I "The Fair King Of France" was born 1052. He died 29 Jul 1108. The Fair King Of France married Bertha Of Holland. [Parents]

831792153. Bertha Of Holland.

[Child]

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