Ancestors of Russell Owen HJELM
Twenty-Ninth Generation
(Continued)
415895660. Osbert De CONDET Lord Of Wickhambreux was born about 1082 in Wickhambreux, Kent, England. He died before 1130 in South Carlton, Eagle & Skellingthorpe, Lincolnshire, England. Osbert married Adelaide De CHESNEY. [Parents]
415895661. Adelaide De CHESNEY was born about 1088 in Lincolnshire, England. She died Dec. [Parents]
415895662. Ranulph De MESCHINES 3rd Earl Of Chester was born about 1070 in Briquessart, Livry, France. He died Jan 1128-1129 in Chester, Cheshire, England and was buried in St Werburgh, Chester, Cheshire, England. Ranulph married Lucy (Lucia) Of MERCIA about 1098 in 3rd Husband.
Ranulph about 1070. He 1128. [Parents]
Ranulf or Randle de Meschines, surnamed de Bricasard, Viscount Bayeux, in Normandy, (son of Ralph de Meschines, by Maud, his wife, co-heir of her brother, Hugh Lupus, the celebrated Earl of Chester), was given by King Henry I the Earldom of Chester, at the decease of his 1st cousin, Richard de Abrincis, 2nd Earl of Chester, of that family, without issue. By some historians, this nobleman is styled Earl of Carlisle, from residing in that city; and they further state that he came over in the train of the Conqueror, assisted in the subjugation of England, and shared, of course, in the spoil of conquest. He was lord of Cumberland and Carlisle, by descent from his father, but having enfeoffed his two brothers, William, of Coupland, and Geffrey, of Gillesland, in a large portion thereof, he exchanged the Earldom of Cumberland for that of Chester, on condition that those whom he had settled there should hold their lands of the king, in capite. His lordship m. Lucia, widow of Roger de Romara, Earl of Lincoln, and dau. of Algar, the Saxon, Earl of Mercia, and had issue, Ranulph, his successor; William, styled Earl of Cambridge, but of his issue nothing in known; Adeliza, m. to Richard Fitz-Gilbert, ancestor of the old Earls of Clare; and Agnes, m. to Robert de Grentemaisnil. The earl d. in 1128 and was s. by his elder son, Ranulph de Meschines. [Sir Bernard Burke, Dormant and Extinct Peerages,. Burke's Peerage, Ltd., London, 1883, p. 365, Meschines, Earls of Chester]
415895663. Lucy (Lucia) Of MERCIA was born about 1070 in Crowland & Spalding, Lincolnshire, England. She died after 1130 in England. [Parents]
Lucy, living 1130, widow susscessively, of Ives Taillebois and Roger Fitz Gerold; m. probably c 1098 Ranulph III le Meschin. [Ancestral Roots]
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He [Ranulph le Meschin] married Lucy, widow of Roger FITZ-GEROLD (by whom she was mother of William de Roumare, afterwards Earl of Lincoln). He died 17 or 27 January 1128/9, and was buried at St. Werburg's, Chester. The Countess Lucy confirmed, as his widow, the grant of the Manor of Spalding to the monks of that place (f). [Complete Peerage III:166, XIV:170, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]
(f) She paid 500 marks to King Henry in 1130 for license to remain unmarried for 5 years.
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The following copied from www.linacre.ox.ac.uk/research/prosop/PRSPN2.stm,
gives the latest research on the ancestry of Lucy:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------Antecessor Noster:
The Parentage of Countess Lucy Made PlainA lot of ink has flowed on the subject, but there can be no doubt that the 'mysterious' Countess Lucy of Chester was William Malet's thrice-married granddaughter, the daughter of Robert Malet's sister and Turold the Sheriff of Lincoln (dead by 1079). The suggestion was first made by R. Kirk in 1888. As N. Sumner has more recently observed: 'This account has the merit of explaining why the lordship of Spalding and other places in Lincolnshire were held after Ivo's death not by Beatrice, his direct heir and the daughter of his marriage to Lucy, but by the later husbands of Lucy, Roger fitz Gerold and Ranulph Meschines.' It is clear from her charters that Lucy was an heiress; as was to be expected, her estates passed to the sons of her second and third marriages. Kirk's work was based upon conjecture, and contained a number of errors. The question of Lucy's parentage has therefore remained open. Nevertheless, there is proof that Kirk was right.
A spurious charter of Crowland Abbey made Turold of Bucknall (the Sheriff) the founder of the priory of Spalding as a cell of Crowland. It also called Turold brother of Godiva countess of Mercia, but subsequently described Godiva's son Earl Algar as Turold's cognatus (cousin). A genealogia fundatoris of Coventry Abbey made Lucy a daughter of Earl Algar and sister and heiress of earls Edwin and Morcar. The Peterborough Chronicle and the Pseudo-Ingulf's Chronicle of Crowland both made Lucy the daughter of Algar and niece or great-niece of Turold. We know that William Malet was half-English, so these traditions probably boil down to a relationship between Countess Godiva and William's English mother.
In 1153 a charter [RRAN, III, 180] of the future Henry II for Lucy's son Ranulf II of Chester referred to her uncles Robert Malet and Alan of Lincoln. Alan of Lincoln was the successor, and almost certainly the son, of Domesday's Alfred of Lincoln. Chronologically, it is most unlikely that Alan was Lucy's uncle. It was probably another of Alfred's sons whom Domesday described as Alfred nepos [nephew or grandson] of Turold, then holding a fee which was certainly thereafter held with the rest of the senior Alfred's fee by his heir Alan. Domesday provides a further indication that Alfred senior married another of William Malet's daughters when it names a William as Alfred's predecessor in two of his manors. Other parts of each of these manors (Linwood and Rothwell) were held in 1086 by Durand Malet, who was probably William's son. It seems that Henry's charter can be explained by seeing a scribe, perhaps in search of rhetorical balance, commit the error of ascribing two uncles to Lucy, instead of a niece (Lucy) and a nephew (Alan of Lincoln) to Robert Malet, who was uncle to both.
Turold is evidenced in Domesday Book as a benefactor of Crowland Abbey, to which he gave a parcel of land at Bucknall. The abbey also held land at Spalding that had probably been granted to it by Earl Algar and there is evidence to suggest that Turold the Sheriff gave further land there to the abbey of St Nicholas, Angers, before 1079. Lucy and her first husband Ivo Taillebois subsequently founded, or perhaps re-founded, a priory at Spalding subject to St Nicholas, Angers. A revealing phrase from the Register of Spalding Priory reads: 'mortuo quia dicto Thoraldo relicta sibi herede Lucia predicta' [at his death Turold left an heir, the aforesaid Lucy]. The word heres, 'heir', was often used of the child who was to inherit his/her father's property. Lucy later confirmed the gifts of all three of her husbands: 'pro redempcione anime patris mei et matris mee et dominorum meorum et parentum meorum' [for the souls of my father and mother, my husbands and my (other) relatives]. The association of the priory with such a small group of people and the description of Lucy as heres of Turold strongly hint at Lucy's parentage. But we can go further still.
In their initial benefaction Ivo and Lucy referred to 'antecessorum suorum Turoldi scilicet uxorisque eius regine' [our 'ancestors' Turold and his wife]. The reference to Turold's wife indicates that some part of his landholding had come to him through his wife, something also indicated by the occurrence of William Malet amongst those who had held the Domesday lands of Lucy's first husband Ivo Taillebois before him. The apparently vague Latin words antecessor and predecessor can both be used to mean something like 'predecessor'. Each of them conveys a range of very precise meanings in different circumstances. The description of Turold and his wife as antecessores of Ivo and Lucy may be compared to the usage in a charter in the cartulary of Mont-Saint-Michel by which the Angevins Hugh Chalibot and his wife confirmed the grants of her father, who was described as antecessor noster. Other examples of this phrase show clearly that it was used by a married man to describe the parent from whom his wife had inherited the property she brought to the marriage. Acting on her own account (normally after her husband's death), the heiress will often describe herself as the daughter of the parent her husband described as antecessor noster. A rare use of the phrase was to indicate the couple's immediate predecessor, not her father but her brother. In Lucy and Ivo's case the plurality of their antecessores, Turold and his wife, puts the matter beyond doubt. Lucy's parents were indeed Turold the Sheriff and a daughter of William Malet.
K. S. B. Keats-Rohan
Linacre College
Oxford
415895832. Henry DE NEWBURGH 1st Earl Of Warwick died 20 Jun 1123 in Ponteaudemer, Normandy, France. He married Margaret DE PERCHE. [Parents]
415895833. Margaret DE PERCHE.
415895834. William DE WARREN is printed as #103235642.
415895835. Isabel DE VERMANDOIS is printed as #103235643.
415896064. Fulk V "Younger Count Of Anjou" married Ermengard. [Parents]
415896065. Ermengard "Of Maine". [Parents]
415896066. Henry I "Beauclerc" ENGLAND King is printed as #7342086.
415896067. Matilda Princess Of SCOTLAND [Princess] is printed as #7342087.
415896068. William VII Of Poitou "The Troubador Duke Of Aquitaine" was born 22 Oct 1071 in France. He died 10 Feb 1126. The Troubador Duke Of Aquitaine married Philippa. [Parents]
415896069. Philippa "Of Toulouse" died 28 Nov 1118 in Fontevrault Abbey, Anjou, France. [Parents]
415896070. Viscount Aimery DE ROCHEFOUCAULD I died 7 Nov 1151 in L'Abbey De Notre Dame De Noyers, France. He married Dangereuse DE IILSE-BOUCHARD. [Parents]
415896071. Dangereuse DE IILSE-BOUCHARD. [Parents]
415896072. Wulgrin II Count Of Angouleme.
415896074. Raimond DE TURENNE I married Matilda DE LA PERCHE. [Parents]
415896075. Matilda DE LA PERCHE. [Parents]
415896076. Louis CAPET VI "The Fat King Of France" married Adelaide DE MAURIENNE. [Parents]
415896077. Adelaide DE MAURIENNE "Of Savoy". [Parents]
415896078. Rainald De COURTENAY married Hawise DE DONJON. [Parents]
415896079. Hawise DE DONJON. [Parents]
415896080. Ramon Berenger IV BARCELONA [King Of Aragon] was born about 1115 in Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain. He died 8 Aug 1162 in San Dalmacio, Torino, Italy. Ramon married Petronila I ARAGON [Queen Aragon] on 1150 in In Aragon, Spain. [Parents]
Name Suffix:
[KING OF ARAGON]
Ancestral File Number:9HM0-Z9
415896081. Petronila I ARAGON [Queen Aragon] was born about 1135 in Of Huesca, Huesca, Spain. She died 17 Oct 1174 in Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain. [Parents]
Ancestral File Number:
91M0-X5
415896082. Alfonso VII Castile And LEON King Of Castile was born 1 Mar 1105 in Castile, Spain. He died 21 Aug 1157 in Fresneda, , Castile and was buried in Toledo, Castile, Spain. Alfonso married Ryksa (Richenza, Rixa) POLAND [Queen Of Castil on 1152 in In Spain.
Alfonso 1 Mar 1104/1105 Castile, Spain. He 21 Aug 1157 In Fresneda. [Parents]
Name Suffix:
[& GALICIA]/
Ancestral File Number:9FWS-1G
415896083. Ryksa (Richenza, Rixa) POLAND [Queen Of Castil was born 1131 in Wroclaw, Wroclaw, Poland. She died 16 Jun 1185. [Parents]
Name Suffix:
[QUEEN OF CASTIL
Ancestral File Number:6TKS-KW
415896084. Rostaign IV Comte De SABRAN was born about 1133 in Sabran, Gard, Languedoc, France. He died 16 Feb 1207/1208. Rostaign married Rose Du CAILAR in France. [Parents]
Ancestral File Number:
VB1F-X9
415896085. Rose Du CAILAR was born about 1140 in Cailar, Gard, Languedoc, France. She died 1206 in France. [Parents]
Ancestral File Number:
VB1F-ZG
415896086. Guillaume VI Comte De FORCALQUIER was born 1130 in Forcalquier, Alpes-DE-Haute-Provence, France. He died 1209 in Forcalquier, , France. Guillaume married Adelaide TRENCAVEL about 1150 in France. [Parents]
Ancestral File Number:
9HM1-VW
415896087. Adelaide TRENCAVEL was born about 1135 in Beziers, Narbonne, Languedoc, France. She died in Forcalquier, , France. [Parents]
I originally had Marguierite de Bourbon as wife of Guillaume; Turton states that Guillaume's wife is Beatrice (no last name); some on World Connect name her Beatrice de Beziers; still others name her Adelaide de Beziers; but I am following a fellow (I originally guessed Pablo was a Frenchman?, but Curt Hofemann says he is an Argentinian living in Miami) named Pablo Mera Gadea, who names her Adelaide Trencavel. She is probably the same person referred to as Adelaide de Beziers, as Adelaide's father was Raimond Trencavel, Viscount of Carcassonne, Rasès, Béziers, Agde, & Albi.
Note that, according to a posting to SGM by Nathaniel Taylor (citing tables by the Catalan genealogist Armand de Fluvia i Escorsa in two tables (s.v. AEnimes and AECarcasona) in the multi-volume 'Gran Enciclopedia Catalana', making no claims to accuracy), Adelaide Trencavel m. Sicard Viscount of Lautrec, and she had a sister Beatrice who m. Raimond VI Count of Toulouse.
Maybe it was her sister Beatrice Trencavel (per Turton (her 1st name) & World Connect people) that married Raimond, instead of Adelaide; or maybe Adelaide & Beatrice married the husbands that Nathaniel Taylor indicated. But, like I said, I am following Pablo Mera Gadea's pedigree. There are also numerous postings to SGM that name her Adelaide de Beziers, without giving her any ancestry.
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The following excerpt from a post to SGM, 10 Jun 2003, by "History Writer", illustrates the confusion, but lends some support to my pedigree:
From: History Writer (hbv2061@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Queen Victoria's Matrilineal Line
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-06-10 04:26:59 PSTChronologically, it would appear that Adelaide Trencavel, who apparently also is known (per the Theroff files) as Adelaide de Beziers (the Trencavels were also Vicomtes de Beziers), may have been a daughter of Raimond Trencavel I. Beatrix Trencavel is listed here as the wife of Raimond VI, Comte de Toulouse. However, Raimond Trencavel's daughter Adelaida Trencavel is listed as the wife of Sicard, Vicomte de Lautrec. In roglo, Sicard's only wife is listed as Agnes de Mauvoisin. If this is the Adelaide Trencavel who became the wife of Guillaume IV de Forcalquier, then she is a good candidate to be the matrilineal ancestress of Queen Victoria. This Adelaide's mother, Saura, is apparently of unknown origin.
I should note that in addition to Adelaide Trencavel (or Adelaide de Beziers) and Beatrix de Beziers, there is another woman listed as Garsende de Forcalquier's mother, she is Marguerite de Bourbon, according to Planche 546 in "Les Seize Quartiers Genealogiques des Capitiens" by J.-D. de Joannis (1987). Though it is unclear who Joannis's source is. Comments welcome. Best Regards.
Note: Todd Farmerie, in an adjunct to this post (referring to a post that was similar to the above post), thinks both "Beziers" and "Trencavel" are guesses, being not well documented.
Note: History Writer has Adelaide's mother as Raymond's 2nd wife Saura; Nathaniel Taylor's source also has Adelaide (although he doesn't connect her to Guillaume) by the 2nd wife. Following Pablo Mera Gadea's pedigree, I had Adelaide as daughter of Raymond's 1st wife, but am changing to agree with the sources.
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Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann@yahoo.com, among numerous other references adds these to the pile of confused pedigrees:
Of the 270 listings on Rootsweb WorldConnect using Guillaume de Forcalquier & death date 1208 ± 10 years as search parameters, 95% of those listing his wife as Marguerite de Bourbon & a source, cite LDS Ancestor File AFN: PZ5V-PF, submitter: Medieval Families C/O Family History Dept (a dept. of the Family History Library itself)... Curt
Interestingly enough I have Adelaide de Bezieres as the wife of Guillaume IV and the mother of his daughter Gersende de Forcalquier. No other details. However in "Les Seize Quartiers Généalogiques des Capétiens" by J.-D. de Joannis planche 546 #43 , it shows Marguerite de Bourbon (no ancestry) as the wife of Guillaume and the mother of his daughter Gersende "fille unique". [Ref: Henry Soszynski 27 Dec 1999]
..See *Europaeische Stammtafeln*, ed. Schwennicke, Band III, Teilband 1 [1984], Tafel 118. The line ends up as follows:
1. Adelaide de Bezieres m. Guillaume IV C de Forcalquier (d. 1209)
..I've seen some speculation about the parentage and ancestry of Adelaide deBezieres, but I haven't seen it tightened up. [Ref: WAR 15 Aug 2000]
415896088. Amadeo III Count Of SAVOY was born about 1092 in Savoy, Rhone Alpes, France. He died 1 Apr 1149 in Nicosia, , Cyprus. Amadeo married Matilda D' ALBON [Countess] on 1120. [Parents]
Ancestral File Number:
9HM0-LD
415896089. Matilda D' ALBON [Countess] was born about 1105 in Albon, France. She died After Jan 1144-1145. [Parents]
Ancestral File Number:
9HM2-48
