Pace-Poythress controversy

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Subj: Pace-Poythress Date: 97-01-05 23:37:18 EST From: VKRatliff@aol.com

I picked up your web site off Cindi's Genealogy Links list. I am John Maynard Poythress. I am one of a half dozen or so Poythress descendents doing work on our line which was complicated by those friendly folks from the Army of the Potomac having wreaked havoc on Prince George County Courthouse during the siege of Petersburg.

Anyway, to my point, about every month or so a Pace chaser comes to me asking about a particular reference:

Richard Pace- b. ca 1675 Va. Will proved Feb.1738, Bertie County, NC, removed from Virginia to NC ca 1723-1726, m. Rebecca __________. (Rebecca Poythress ?)

Apparently the matter of whether the bride in question was or was not a Poythress is a matter hotly contested among the Pace researchers.

After enough queries I was finally motivated to go thru my material and compose a document containing all my Pace references to the marriage in question so that I might just attach it to an e-mail reply which would be the best I had for the questioner.

I have attached a copy for you. My interest in this is that if I am going to be a magnet for Pace queries anyway I certainly want to do the best by them as many have done for me.

Oh yes, and the question is whether or not you all have answered the question was she or was she not a Poythress?

Look forward to hearing from you and thanks.

John M. Poythress (VKRatliff@aol.com).....and a Mississippi boy ought to recognize that "handle".

Before citing John Poythress' records, let's look at Bruce Howard's comments:

There was no connection between Richard and a Poythress. Mrs. Mehrkens (see below **) made it up from guesswork. Rebecca Poythress, daughter of Francis and Rebecca Poythress, was still a single woman in Prince George Co., Va., when Richard and Rebecca Pace were residing in North Carolina. Her father, Major Francis Poythress, died in England in about the year 1692 while on business. Mrs. Rebecca Poythress remarried the following year to Mr. Charles Bartholomew. There was an older Capt. Francis Poythress who died in the 1660's. He was not the father of Major Francis Poythress, however. I have not found any evidence that he had a daughter named Rebecca. At any rate I give all of the proof of these matters in the appendix of my book in relation to the chapter dealing with Richard Pace Jr. of North Carolina, if for no other reason but to disprove the myth. I have no idea what Rebecca Pace's maiden name was and my best attempts to find out have failed. As to the Richard Pace who has land dealings with Mr. Francis Poythress, Sr., and Jr. of Prince George County, he is the son of James Pace. He is also my direct ancestor. They had a business arrangment only. There was no intermarriage. Anyone interested would do well to dig deep into the early court order books of Charles City County. There is a lot of information about the Poythress Family in those records.

** - Mrs. Mehrkens was an early editor of the Pace Bulletin who frequently speculated about possible connections or facts, then treated her speculations as hard fact from then on. I have seen several evidences of this practice in the Pace Bulletins and elsewhere. Because it was in the Pace Bulletins, many Pace researchers regard this speculation as gospel. Be aware that this is not the case. -Roy Johnson, Webmaster

Poythress references to possible marriage of Richard Pace to Rebecca Poythress. Submitted by John Maynard Poythress.

*The Poythress Family- A Study of Francis(1),Francis(2), Frances(3), and Francis(4) by William B. Hall of Selma, Alabama. Wm & Mary Quarterly Vol. 14 (1934), pgs. 77-83.

*Wm & Mary Quarterly Vol. 27 (1918-1920), pgs. 37-38, Deed by By Burrell Green and his wife Anne(Poythress...sister to Rebecca?)and Francis Poythress...etc.

*The Edward Pleasants Valentine Papers. See Wm. & Mary Quarterly, Series 2, Vol. 10 (1930).

*Colonial and Revolutionary Lineages of America, Vol. 24, Pub. 1968 The American Historical Society, NY. Page 293 ff. First Poythress line: Captain Francis (1) Poythress, father of Major Francis (2) Poythress. Major Francis (2) Poythress m. Rebecca Coggin (likely Rebecca Wynn Coggin). Children: John Poythress (m. Mary Batte 1690), daughter: Elizabeth, son: William, daughter: Rebecca (the Rebecca in question as to whether she married Richard Pace).

*Some Southern Colonial Families, Vol. 2, by David A. Avant, Jr., Pub. by L'Avant Studios, Box 1711, Tallahassee, 1982. Chapter V: Pace Family of England, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, & Georgia.

Working chart: "Richard Pace- b. ca 1675 Va., will proved Feb. 1738, Bertie County, NC, removed from Virginia to NC ca 1723-1726, m. Rebecca _______.

Mr. Avant is vigorous in his point that Richard Pace's wife Rebecca was not a Poythress. [I have excerpted this material from Mr. Avant's book and the complete text can be found following Mr. Poythress' citations. -Webmaster]

*See family group sheets "Pace" and "Poythress" of Phyllis Lindenmeyer, 1902 Pine Lake Drive, W. Columbia, S. C.29169 ...Mrs. Lindenmeyer actively researching Pace/Poythress in 1995, has very comprehensive line of Richard Pace/Rebecca Poythress with ten issue.

* Historical Southern Families, John Bennett Boddie, Volume IV, "Poythress": "III Rebecca Poythress. Circumstantial evidence is strong that she married Richard Pace, d. 1738, and removed with him to N. C. (VHG 168). According to family tradition, this Richard Pace m. a Rebecca Poythress.

In 1715 Francis Poythress, Sen., sold 100 acres to Peter Grammar on Holly Bushes Branch, on the line of Richard Pace. (P. G. B. 1718-1728, 63). On 11-11=1718, Richard Pace and Francis Poythress sold 400 acres on Old Town Run, adjoining the lands of Rosser and Goodrich.".

Source: Some Southern Colonial Families, Vol. 2, by David A. Avant, Jr., Pub. by L'Avant Studios, Box 1711, Tallahassee, 1982. Chapter V: Pace Family of England, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, & Georgia. pp. 209-212

Note: numbers in parenthesis indicate the number of generations from Richard Pace of Jamestown. Col. Avant lists RICHARD PACE ⁽⁴⁾as the great-grandson of Richard of Jamestown. Some in the Pace Society have referred to him as Richard Pace III because he would be the third Richard Pace in that line. Mr. Avant's method is accepted genealogical practice; the Pace Society method is not.

The following is quoted verbatim from Col. Avant's book:

It seems unthinkable to this writer to leave the records of RICHARD PACE ⁽⁴⁾ without addressing the riddle of the maiden name of his wife, Rebecca.

The Pace Society Bulletin #6 (Dec., 1968) offers the hypothesis that Richard ⁽⁴⁾ (called Richard III in the article) married REBECCA POYTHRESS, PROBABLY the daughter of FRANCIS POYTHRESS , SR.(d. ca. 1690). The argument considering this possibility is based primarily on the fact that RICHARD ⁽⁴⁾ paid FRANCIS POYTHRESS, JR. £100 in 1718 for a 300 acre tract of land which had formerly been given to REBECCA POYTHRESS by her mother, an older REBECCA POYTHRESS, plus a 100 acre tract of land belonging to the said RICHARD PACE.

The Pace Society Bulletin #44 (June 1978) has another article concerning this by MR. RUTH R. BROCK KRAMER who states that, "RICHARD PACE married REBECCA about 1699. Their eldest child was born 1700. AUTHORITIES AGREE THAT SHE WAS REBECCA POYTHRESS." MRS. KRAMER also states "IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED THAT MARY, WIFE OF RICHARD PACE⁽³⁾, WAS A DAUGHTER OF JOHN KNOWLES AND HIS WIFE MARY. Who the "AUTHORITIES" were or who "ESTABLISHED" the maiden name of MARY as "KNOWLES' is carefully ignored. MRS. KRAMER continues her undocumented contribution by stating that ELIZABETH PACE, DAUGHTER OF RICHARD AND MARY PACE, MARRIED JOHN HAMLIN, SR. This now becomes thoroughly discredited as there is ample proof that CAPT. JOHN HAMLIN, SR., MARRIED ELIZABETH TAYLOR (NOT PACE) and this writer, as one of their descendants, has unquestioned documentation of this fact.

A letter written to MRS. ELEANOR PACE TERRELL 20 MAY 1971 by MISS MAUD KELLY, Attorney, who devoted over forty years accumulating Pace family records, states on p. 5 of the letter that RICHARD PACE ⁽⁴⁾DID NOT MARRY A POYTHRESS and, "FURTHERMORE, THE REBECCA POYTHRESS WHOM SOME CLAIM AS HIS WIFE WAS BORN ABOUT 1714, WHEREAS RICHARD AND REBECCA PACE HAD GIRLS BORN IN THE 1690'S AND A SON, RICHARD, BORN 1699-1700, WHICH IS 14 YEARS AT LEAST BEFORE HIS SO CALLED [alleged] MOTHER WAS BORN."

The patent for 1,000 acres in Charles City Co., Va., (in that portion which became Prince George in 1702) dated 29 Apr. 1692, granted to (MRS.) REBECCA POYTHRESS, late in the tenure of EDWARD ARLINGTON, deceased, and found to escheat, etc. (NUGENT, 2:378), proves (1) that REBECCA was a widow, (2) that her husband must have died before 1692, and ⁽³⁾ therefore her children, including REBECCA, the younger, were born before 1692. MISS KELLY, therefore, erred in her estimation that REBECCA, THE YOUNGER, was born ca. 1714.

However, MISS KELLY in her notarized account of the PACE family, does not enter the melee and has no mention, pro or con, concerning the conjectural and unproved theory that REBECCA (PACE) "THE YOUNGER'S" maiden name was "POYTHRESS."

Prince George Co., VA, Wills & Deeds (1713-1728), p. 502:

11 Dec. 1721 - Indenture in which BURRELL GREEN and ANNE, HIS WIFE, and FRANCIS POYTHRESS, of Surry Co., Va., sell to ROBERT HUNNICUT, of Prince George Co., shoemaker, a tract of land in Prince George Co. containing 200 acres...BEING PART OF A PATENT FOR 1`,000 ACRES GRANTED TO [MRS.] REBECCA POYTHRESS, BY ESCHEAT, DATED 29 Apr. 1692 ... THE MOIETY OF ONE-HALF OF THE PATENT [500 Acres] BEING IN POSSESSION OF LITTLEBERRY EPES AND 300 ACRES MORE OF SAID PATENT GIVEN TO REBECCA POYTHRESS, DAUGHTER OF THE SAID REBECCA, THE PANTENTEE, AND THE OTHER 200 ACRES, THE RESIDUE, WAS GIVEN TO THE SAID ANNE [GREEN] AND IS BOUNDED BY THE SAID REBECCA'S 300 ACRES.

Witnesses: JOSEPH SIMMONS, ABR. ODUIM, and JAMES JONES. Recorded 12 Dec. 1721.

COMMENT: [by Col. Avant] The proponents of the REBECCA "POYTHRESS" theory cite the above record as their evidence. An analysis by this writer seems to indicate the opposite.

RICHARD and REBECCA PACE had been married more than 20 years when the above deed was written and had children of adult age.
If the 300 acres described had belonged to REBECCA, WIFE OF RICHARD PACE, it would have belonged to RICHARD PACE, IN RIGHT OF HIS WIFE, and he would have been cited as the owner of the 300 acres, NOT REBECCA POYTHRESS.
ANNE POYTHRESS is clearly described as wife of BURRELL GREEN but REBECCA is NEVER cited as the wife of RICHARD PACE NOR AS "REBECCA PACE".
It is particularly noted that IN THE YEAR 1721 (date of the deed) the 300 acres is still described as belonging to "THE SAID REBECCA [POYTHRESS]," NOT REBECCA, WIFE OF RICHARD PACE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE LEGAL OWNER IF REBECCA POYTHRESS HAD BEEN HIS WIFE.

(End of quoted material from Col. Avant)

Leatha Betts enters the fray and provides the following:

Rebecca Poythress who married Richard Pace III (son of George Pace and Miss Woodlief, daughter of Edward Woodlief, son of Richard Pace and Mary ?Baker/Knowles?, son of George Pace and Sarah Macock, son of Richard Pace and Isabell Smyth, son of Richard Pace) is the daughter of Frances Poythress, Jr. and Rebecca Wynne/Coggin, son of Frances Poythress and Mary, son of John Poythress. Sources VIRGINIA GLEANINGS IN ENGLAND by Lothrop Withington, Gen. Pub. Co. 1980, MARRIAGES OF SOME VIRGINIA RESIDENTS 1607-1800 by Dorothy Ford Wulfect Vol. II, Surnames I-Z, p. 146, 250, HISTORICAL SOUTHERN FAMILIES by John Bennet Boddie, Vol. !V, p.31,32.

Par Reg. of England, Christenings Newent Gloucester, England 12 Jul 1690 for Francis Poythres, father John Poythres

Par Registers of England, Christenings, Kingston-Upon-Thames, Surrey, England 24 Aug 1580, father Richard Pace.

[Webmaster's note: I have seen this listing before, and have not seen clear evidence that Richard Pace of Wapping and Jamestowne is the same Richard Pace who was born in Kingston-upon-Thames.]

Yours Leatha A. Betts

==============

Subj: Re: More.... Date: 98-04-18 16:41:57 EDT From: jlabetts@burgoyne.com To: royjNOSPAM@webster.edu (Remove the NOSPAM) (PaceNetwrk)

Dear Roy Went to Library and yes, the Poythres stuff is valid, Rebecca Poythres wife of Richard Pace, was a daughter of Frances Poythres, Jr. b. abt. 1642 Prince George, Virginia with wife Rebecca Coggin b. ab. 1657 Charles City co. Virginia, dau of John Coggin, Westover Charles City County, Virginia. Richard Pace and Rebecca Poythress married about 1699 in Charles City Co. Virginia, then had children. Sources: MARRIAGES OF VIRGINIA RESIDENTS by Dorothy Ford Wulfeck, p.146. ENGLISH DUPLICATES OF LOST VIRGINIA RECORDS com. by Louis des Cognets, Jr.Pub. Gen Pub. co. inc. 1980.

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