R1b1b2h (R1b1c10) DYS #385a and 385b Mutation Chart Example: Generation 1: 11 and 14 (Modal) Generation 2: 11 and 15 (Mutation for oldest male) everyone else at modal Generation 3: 11 and 14 (Modal) everyone at modal except generation two descendants Generation 4-30: 11 and 14 (Modal) everyone at modal except generation two descendants ____________________________________________________________ Generation 2a: 11 and 16 (Mutation for oldest male) everyone at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15 Generation 2a 1-30: 11 and 16 Everyone at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15 _____________________________________________________________ Generation 2a-2: 11 and 17 (Mutation for oldest male) everyone at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15, and generation 2a descendants at 11 and 16 Generation 2a-2 1-30: 11 and 17 Everyone at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15 and generation 2a descendants at 11 and 16 __________________________________________________________________ Generation 2a-3: 11 and 18 (Mutation for oldest male) everyone at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15, generation 2a descendants at 11 and 16, and generation 2a-2 at 11 and 17 Generation 2a-3 1-30: 11 and 18 Everyone at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15, generation 2a descendants at 11 and 16, and generation 2a-2 at 11 and 17 _____________________________________________________________________ * Mutations recorded in the second generation and oldest male for brevity and does not include the inevitable mutation at DYS #385a from 11 to 12 or 11 to 10. This example also pertains to the back mutation from 11 and 14, 11 and 13, 11 and 12, etc… Obviously, recLOH events can occur at the 11 and 11, 12 and 12, 13 and 13, and 14 and 14 values. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- E-mail: Glenn Nolen to Bennett Greenspan, President of FTDNA 30 January 2008 Forgive me for this, but I did want to clarify things with an example. You may discard it at your leisure if it does not make any sense at all! And I do appreciate your time. There is no need to respond! Below is an example of my thinking process on R1b1b2h (R1b1c10) DYS #385a and 385b with mutations in the second generation for brevity and recorded in the oldest male. Even if mutations occur in younger siblings or in various different generations the outliers, surnames on the fringes, of these markers might be used to identify the original lineage over time. For example, say generation two, eight, ten, seventeen, and twenty each produced one mutation from the modal of 11 and 14: Generation two, eight, and ten mutate upward to 11 and 15, Generation seventeen and twenty mutate downward to 11 and 13, The next generation of those lineages, 8a, going back down to the modal of 11 and 14, Generation 10a mutates again going to 11 and 16 Generation 2a stays at 11 and 15, With the next generation of lineages, 17a, going back to the modal Generation 20a mutates to 11 and 12, Over time most of the results will be at modal including the non-mutation lineages, but with random mutations, over a prolonged period the fringes of these markers may indicate the original R1b1c10 lineage. Generation 1: 11 and 14 (Modal) Generation 2: 11 and 15 (Mutation for oldest male) everyone else at modal Generation 3: 11 and 14 (Modal) everyone at modal except generation two descendants Generation 4-30: 11 and 14 (Modal) everyone at modal except generation two descendants ____________________________________________ Generation 2a: 11 and 16 (Mutation for oldest male) everyone else at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15 Generation 2a 1-30: 11 and 16 Everyone else at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15 __________________________________ Generation 2a-2: 11 and 17 (Mutation for oldest male) everyone else at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15 and generation 2a descendants at 11 and 16 Generation 2a-2 1-30: 11 and 17 Everyone else at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15 and generation 2a descendants at 11 and 16 ________________________________________________________________________ Generation 2a-3: 11 and 18 (Mutation for oldest male) Everyone else at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15, generation 2a descendants at 11 and 16, and generation 2a-2 at 11 and 17 Generation 2a-3 1-30: 11 and 18 Everyone else at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15, generation 2a descendants at 11 and 16, and generation 2a-2 at 11 and 17 _____________________________________________________________________ Generation 2b: 11 and 13 (Mutation for oldest male) everyone at modal except generation two descendants at 11 and 15 and generation 2a at 11 and 16 Generation 2b 1-30: 11 and 13 Everyone at modal except generation two descendants at 11 and 15 and generation 2a at 11 and 16 ____________________________________________ Generation 2b-2: 11 and 12 (Mutation for oldest male) everyone else at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15, generation 2a at 11 and 16, generation 2a-2 at 11 and 17, and generation 2b at 11 and 13 Generation 2b-2 1-30: 11 and 12 Everyone else at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15, generation 2a at 11 and 16, generation 2a-2 at 11 and 17, and generation 2b at 11 and 13 __________________________________ Generation 2b-3: 11 and 11 (Mutation for oldest male) everyone else at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15, generation 2a at 11 and 16, generation 2a-2 at 11 and 17, generation 2a-3 at 11 and 18, generation 2b at 11 and 13, and generation 2b-2 at 11 and 12 Generation 2b-3 1-30: 11 and 11 Everyone else at modal except for generation two descendants at 11 and 15, generation 2a at 11 and 16, generation 2a-2 at 11 and 17, generation 2a-3 at 11 and 18, generation 2b at 11 and 13, and generation 2b-2 at 11 and 12 Thanks,