Ermengarde

• Reference: 1237

• Marriage: BEF 0956

1. Adelaide of Burgundy

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Notes

but does not give her parents.

Stuart's "Royalty for Commoners" (258:37), calls her "prob. dau. of Eliram

and sister of Raoul II, Count of Dijon."

Moriarty, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 10 says: "Ermengard is usually called

a daughter of Richard the Judiciar, duke of Burgundy, but Chaume shows

that there is no evidence for this and that she is probably a sister of

Raoul II Count of Dijon."

Matman posted to

soc.genealogy.medieval on10 Apr 1997:

Subject: Re: Hugh the Black

"Gerald Blanchard wrote:

"Pere Anselm shows Hugh the Black, Duke of Normandy [sic - Burgundy]

d.952, as the son of Richard the Justicier d.921. Ermengarde, is shown

as a daughter of Richard and that she married Gilbert, Count of Chalon,

Autun & de Beaune. Brian Tompsett's page shows Gilbert's wife as

"daughter of Burgundy" whose father was Hugh the Black. Where does

Ermengarde actually fit in to this?

Jerry"

[the reply follows] : "daughter of Burgundy! I guess something got left

out there, perhaps deliberately, as there seem to be a number of views

on Ermengarde's parentage.

Here are a few i've collated:

Dunbabin (France in the Making 843-1180), p65, says Gilbert (other

sources use Giselbert etc) was the son in law of Hugo, but doesn't name

the daughter he married. Their daughter Lietaud married Otto/Odo (d.965)

brother of Hugh Capet.

Mckitterick (the Frankish Kingdoms under the Carolingians, 1983) in

one of the genealogical charts has Ermengarde dau of Richard le

Justiciar, married to Gilbert.

Europaische Stammtafeln, III, 189 mentions no daughters of Richard le

J, or Hugh the Black. It has Gilbert's father, Manasses as a nephew of R le

J (which is surely wrong, as they were contempories) and credits

Giselbert with a daughter Adelaide, who married 3 times:

1) Robert of Meaux and Troyes, son of Heribert II of Vermandois

2). Lambert of Chalon, d.979

3.) Geoffrey I of Anjou, d.987

ES II, 11 says however, that Lietaud, wife of Odo/Otto, above, was the

daughter of Gilbert and Ermengarde.

I suspect that the reason for this confusion, is because different

theories exist among the French historians who did the initial research. I

think the oldest view (dating from the 17th century! by Duchesne,

l'origine de la maison de Vergy, etc) was that Gilbert had married a dau.

of Richard. But this century some have made him marry a dau of Hugo

(P.Lauer, le regne de Raoul et Loius IV, 1900, I think is the title). There

are some more up to date studies on Burgundy by Constance Bouchard, but

I havn't looked at them yet. There's also a book on the duchy of Burgundy

by a French abbot, Maurice Chaume, which goes into huge detail on this.

I expect there are other theories on this descent as well."