GENTREK Mondays 8-10pm ET Golden Gates Chat Room Keyword: ROOTS > Chats (only on AOL)

Unk Hiram's Chat Cabins www.bhocutt.com Hosted Chats Monday thru Thursday 8 - 10 pm Central Time

WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER good elements of a genealogical query?

by Dear Myrtle

Unk Hiram's Chat Cabins  

April 9, 2003

<DearMYRTLE smiles, and opens her basket of chocolate chip cookies...>

DearMYRTLE: ANY TAKERS for homemade chocolate chip cookies.....NO CALORIES of course!

DearMYRTLE: UNK, I hear you are having a genealogy seminar... is Jayne in on you with that? TELL us about it UNK!

Unk_Hiram: Myrt, We are having the 2nd annual Tri-Counties Genealogical Workshop in June Sponsored By Uncle Hiram

<DearMYRTLE smiling with interest>

Unk_Hiram: Got several good speakers lined up, and we are gonna meet all day for only $3

<DearMYRTLE thinks so too.>

Unk_Hiram: Gots lots of free handouts lined up for the folks that attend

Katitude: Unk, this is in Texas, right?

Unk_Hiram: and after the "Workshop" we are gonna have an informal dinner at the local Italian Resturant for anyone that wants to attend

DearMYRTLE: that sounds wonderful.

Unk_Hiram: Kat, Yup Leonard Texas, Fannin County

Unk_Hiram: Our Guest speaker yesterday, is one of the speakers at the Workshop

DearMYRTLE: WELL< y'all know that you can HeAR

UnkHiram LIVE when he visits my internet radio show each month!

Unk_Hiram: So Myrt, we are you speaking next?

DearMYRTLE: Myy next thing will be Tuesday, , during my show... but actually, I won't be speakin again until the first Saturday in May at the local PAF Users group.

DearMYRTLE: HEY GUYS.... ARE YOU READY FOR SOME GENEALOGY??????????

Bits: ready!!!!!

Mike: Yes

Sharon: yes!

DearMYRTLE: ok.... got a question for ya....

Unk_Hiram: Lets try to maintain a bit of Protocal ---- Please if you have a question, put a question marke and wait to be called on
If you have a comment, do a exclamation mark and wait your turn If its a mean comment, just slap the brat instead

DearMYRTLE: OOOOPS...

DearMYRTLE: here's my question....

DearMYRTLE: WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER good elements of a genealogical query?

DearMYRTLE: Jump in everyone with your response!

Sharon: who, what , where, when

Mike: Person, Place, Period, Purpose

Unk_Hiram: Name, Location, Date, and a valid email address

DearMYRTLE: time period is important.

Bits: Sharon gave my answer

DearMYRTLE:

DearMYRTLE: I received an e-mail request for HELP with family history research where the individual wrote:

Mike: Any pertinant information you already posess

DearMYRTLE: TRUE mike.

DearMYRTLE: am searching for any info on Richard H. Williams, his father Thomas Williams, his mother, Electa Victorie Rickey. Thomas was born aboard a ship in New York harbor in the middle 1800. Electa was born in Canada in the1850.I don't know where Richard was born. I think it was some place in WI. I can't find anything about him before 1900.Thanks.

DearMYRTLE: WHAT is missing from that Query? WHY was it impossible for me to assist this person?
DearMYRTLE: WHAT additional information would help me with the research challenge?

Mike: Where was he in 1900?

DearMYRTLE: Look at it from a RESEARCHER's point of view..... rather than from YOUR FAMILY point of view.... and MAYBE we can do something.

Unk_Hiram: The name of the Ship would have helped

DearMYRTLE: GOOD POINT MIKE...

Contrary: Specific dates, location....town, county

DearMYRTLE: The individual SHOULD have told me what he DID know about the 3 ancestors... like where they died.

DearMYRTLE: What kind of things could I discover when looking at death records?

Bits: parents names

Katitude: parents names

DearMYRTLE: YES, UNK. Ship's names help NY Harbor is too general.

Mike: Place of birth, parents names, dates

DearMYRTLE: mid 1800s is too general.

Katitude: place of birth

DearMYRTLE: good bits....

DearMYRTLE: There CAN be problems with death records....

Contrary: also. County where they died

DearMYRTLE: particularly when it pertains to birth info.... BUT AT LEAST THESE ARE CLUES.

DearMYRTLE: CONTRARy.... that is TRUE... and what I was going for.

DearMYRTLE: THE COUNTY may have some OTHER interesting things

DearMYRTLE: got any ideas about OTHER county records that might prove useful, if you know where the person died or was buried?

DearMYRTLE: how about PROBATE PACKETS....?
had any experience with these?

Unk_Hiram: Land Deeds, Wills, Estate Records

Sharon: yep, my favorite

Unk_Hiram: Other people's deeds, will and probaates Check the witnesses

DearMYRTLE: RIGHT every place

DearMYRTLE: your ancestor owned property

DearMYRTLE: had to have the property go through PROBATE.

Unk_Hiram: I would also suggest you look in the Court records

<DearMYRTLE smiles>

Unk_Hiram: Look specifically at who was on the JURY

DearMYRTLE: SERIOUSLY... has ANYONE ever looked at an ancestor's PROBATE PACKET?

Unk_Hiram: It would place your ancestor in that specific location on that specific date

DearMYRTLE: good UNK.

Unk_Hiram: Yup, shure have

DearMYRTLE: hadn't ever thought of Jury duty.

Contrary: funeral home records, tax records, deds, local newspapers

DearMYRTLE: NEWSPAPERS for obit.... or account of unusual death.

Contrary: local genealogy socities

DearMYRTLE: PROBATE RECORDS are foudn at the cOURTHOUSE...

DearMYRTLE: and since only UNK has indicated using them...

Sharon: Probate packets are full of wonderful surprises

DearMYRTLE: let me mention a few things you can find in a probate packet.

DearMYRTLE: oh good, sharon... what have you found.

DearMYRTLE: THANKS CONTRARY....

DearMYRTLE: ** REMEMBER** your ancestor didn't have to have a WILL or be wealthy to have a PROBATE PACKET.

Sharon: Found inforamtion on all the children, and since the probate went on for several years it tracked the children as they moved

Unk_Hiram: Remind me to mention something to check for in probate's prior to 1865, after Myrt makes her points

DearMYRTLE: RIGHT.... the widows weren't considered capable of directing the affairs of her children, so the COURT appoints a
Sharon: found Dr's last bill and coffin bill for wife which gave me her date of death as well as his

DearMYRTLE: GUARDIAN For the children.

DearMYRTLE: NEAT.

DearMYRTLE: each year the GUARDIAN had to report to the court re:

DearMYRTLE: money he spent on the children for clothing, schooling, health care.

DearMYRTLE: and he would be reimbursed by the proceeds of the estate for such services.

Sharon: Inventory and person's who m=bought at auction which gave me specific times and location for other ancestors

DearMYRTLE: (IF indeed there even WERE proceeds of the sale of the estate )

DearMYRTLE: YES, Sharon... the inventories are interesting.

DearMYRTLE: as are some of the colonial wills, where even a feather pillow

DearMYRTLE: or a linen shirt

DearMYRTLE: or one black pot

DearMYRTLE: are listed as assets

DearMYRTLE: did you know that even as LATE as the 1890s it was still quite popular

DearMYRTLE: and in good taste to give a weddin preset of a pair of SCISSORS?

DearMYRTLE: we take so much for granted.

DearMYRTLE: If your ancestor died INTESTATE

DearMYRTLE: meaning WITHOUT a will

DearMYRTLE: you can BET that he owed someone some $$$$$$

DearMYRTLE: SO his estate would be goig through probate.

DearMYRTLE: Probate is really a process where

DearMYRTLE: an executor is appointed (either in the will or by the judge)

DearMYRTLE: and that individul(s)

DearMYRTLE: must draw up an INVENTOORY as mentioned before

DearMYRTLE: of all the ASSETS real and personal

DearMYRTLE: left by the deceased

DearMYRTLE: and then advertise, and with due dilligence

DearMYRTLE: attempt to locate all legal heirs.

DearMYRTLE: various states required certain things....

DearMYRTLE: such as the wife gets 1/3

DearMYRTLE: the rest to be divided between the children.

DearMYRTLE: so if you had 2 children, they would each get 1/3 of the estate

DearMYRTLE: sometimes

DearMYRTLE: so if one of the children of an individual had already died....

Unk_Hiram: If you are doing African American research, prior to 1865, the names, ages and sex of "slaves" were also listed in the Probate, and who they were "left" too

DearMYRTLE: yes, UNK... they were just PROPERTY

DearMYRTLE: :/

DearMYRTLE: good point for AA research

Sharon: ?

Unk_Hiram: Yes Ms Sharon, Maam

DearMYRTLE: anyway... if the one child had already died before his father, and HE had 2 kids, they'd get 1/6 of the original estate

DearMYRTLE: particularly if their mother had also passed away.

DearMYRTLE: YES SHARON.

Sharon: In the case of dower rights--was it always probated?

DearMYRTLE: so looking at the LISTS and what % they received is a BIG clue as to family relationships if they aren't stated.

DearMYRTLE: YES, because we had to see what was DOWERY and what wasn't.

DearMYRTLE: so the court had to review it.

DearMYRTLE: course in the back woods, NONE of this happened.

DearMYRTLE: people just went on with their lives, working it out on their own.

DearMYRTLE: THE HUSBAND might have had terrible debts, and her dower rights could have been diminished as in the case of one of my

DearMYRTLE: ancestresses in VA.

Unk_Hiram: Myrt, depends on how much money was actully owed by the farmer or whatever the dead guy was Or if he died right after the harvest and was "Plush" with cash

DearMYRTLE: right.

DearMYRTLE: in my case, he had more debts than he should have had....

DearMYRTLE: the plantation was mortgaged and she didn't realizer this.

DearMYRTLE: DO YOU NEED A DEFINITION OF DOWER RIGHTS?

Unk_Hiram: Myrt, go ahead and share the definition

Contrary: ?

Unk_Hiram: It may help someone later, when the talk is posted

Unk_Hiram: Contrary, You are next, right after the definition

DearMYRTLE: Some states ALLOWED for DOWER RIGHTS.... which according to the GLOSSARY at http://www.familysearch.org is:

Sharon: Myrt, you can go out and right back in

DearMYRTLE: A portion of or interest in a deceased husband's lands or tenements that is given to his widow to support her and her children.

DearMYRTLE: Other states DID NOT ALLOW that widow to handle ANY money for her minor children.

Unk_Hiram: Contrary what is your question?

DearMYRTLE: IT BEHOOVES Us to study the prevailing laws of the state where our ancestor died.

DearMYRTLE: AND CONSIDER THE

DearMYRTLE: time period, as things changed over time.

DearMYRTLE: DOWRY on the other hand is defined as: The money, property, or goods that a woman brings to a marriage. In some cultures the woman controls the dowry. In others, the dowry becomes the husband's property.

Contrary: When a renunciation f dower appears on a deed does the wife have a relative as a witness?

DearMYRTLE: anyone can witness....

DearMYRTLE: but ANY WITNESSES are a place to search

DearMYRTLE: as possible next of kin, no matter what the document. But just because someone witnessed a will, renunciation or ???? doesn't mean that person was related to the individual in question or her deceased husband

DearMYRTLE: Do you have an example Contrary?
Contrary: OK.....I just undordered a record that lists a wife for an ancestor whom has never shown up in records or research before So I was wondering about possible relationships

DearMYRTLE: Well, it is always a bit of a shock when we see that an ancestor had additional wives (and they weren't Mormon?) the wife for the ancestor may have been a later in life wife, honey... I WOULD CONCLUDE that the wife that you know of had pre-deceased her husband, and that this individual signed this on her marriage to the individual as a requirement of marriage so that HIS CHILDREN would receive their true interitance. certainly , you have some more research to do... look for the marriage record of the ancestor to this wife, and see that it post-dates the birth of the known children.

Unk_Hiram: Ok, quick everyone run to the bathrooms and the fridge

DearMYRTLE: AHHHHHH.... I guess we did a pretty good job of discussing a PROBATE PACKET. Remember that these are LOOSE papers, so they aren't usually on microfilm. You usally get the INDEX to the probate packets.... or the WILL BOOK. on films at LDS. You'd have to write and ask the courthouse for the ENTIRE PROBATE PACKET.

Contrary: Helena and Lewis Mouzon to Frederick and Theodora Gaillard Runiviation of Dower 1733 Court of Common Pleas

DearMYRTLE: WHERE?

DearMYRTLE: HHMMMMMMM...... I believe that you're going to need to consult someone who is more experienced with such a document in the court
of the COLONY in question.

Contrary: SC

DearMYRTLE: It isn't what I was expecting. Remember that BRENT HOLCOMB is quite experienced with the SC records. He might be able to explain that sort of document to you. I was expecting only the huusband and wife to sign it, or just the wife to sign in. But it looks like the other couple is mighty interested. IF it were HER parents, they WOULDN'T want her to sign away those rights.

DearMYRTLE: this has been quite a DETAILED discussion. I have ANOTHER QUESTION FOR EVERYONE........... Can you suggest ONE OR TWO reliable places to go on the WEB to find out MORE about doing research in a SPECIFIC PLACE like the state of WISCONSIN, or in Contrary's case, SOUTH CAROLINA?

BRATttitude: genweb rootsweb

<DearMYRTLE nodding> http://www.usgenweb.org

Sharon: SC Archives

Katitude: What about U.S. Geneology Web project

DearMYRTLE: I am looking specifically for HOW TO INFO.... not sure if the state archives has that info... I recally that the STate ARCHIVES has moved their manuscripts across town to the SOUTH CAROLINIANA LIBRARY in Columbia

Contrary: Sharon.....I found that entry I just mentioned at the Archives and have ordered a copy of the record

DearMYRTLE: so you found it in the CATALOG of items they had... and you were able to order it directly? via e-mail or telephone?

<DearMYRTLE thinks this is very kewl!>

Contrary: There are also printed guides to the holdings of both the SC ARchives and the Carolinia Library manuscript hldings The SC archives has put indexes to many of their holdings online and can be searched by surnames
That is how I found the abstract to the record I mentioned

DearMYRTLE: eXCELLENT work!

DearMYRTLE: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/RG/frameset_rhelps.asp This link takes you to the ONLINE version of those wonderful RESEARCH OUTLINES for each state, province and major country of the world written by the folks at the LDS Family History Library who are responsible for CREATING the collection dedciding what to microfilm next)
they know items essential to research that aren't even in the FHL I used the paper versions whenever someone came into the local FHCenter
and asked for help on something like North Dakota (which I don't know at ALL)but th eONLINE VERSIONS are soooo much better... all sorts of clickable links in these online RESEARCH OUTLINES
FOR INSTANCE... let's all open another INTERNET EXPLORER WINDOW and switch back and forth between this room and http://www.familysearch.org and we'll look at the research outline for South Carolina.... I'll have to explain HOW and WHERE to find it OK?

Unk_Hiram: Speaking of online help, Sometime in the very near future, there will be online downloadable forms on the main site

DearMYRTLE: HERE"s the plan, if you want to do this little exercise.... 1. OPEN ANOTHER WEB BROWSER WINDOW.(I am using AOL and Internet explorer... and can switch back and for without leaving this room)now go to http://www.familysearch.org Once you get there.....click on the SEARCH tab then CLICK on RESEARCH HELPS there you will find the RESEARCH OUTLINES I mentioned.... You'd have to click on S for SOUTH CAROLINA SCROLL DOWN until you see SOUTH CAROLINA RESEARCH OUTLINE...

DearMYRTLE: UNK.... we're trying to go on a VIRTUAL TOUR using a separate window to view what I am talking about...THESE research outlines are excellent.

DearMYRTLE: The one for GERMANY is 78 pages if you print it out.and it is ALL very good advice.

Unk_Hiram: I know, I am following along

DearMYRTLE: MUCH more up to date than the white RESEARCH OUTLINES in paper format you can buy at your local LDS FHCenter.
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/RG/framesetrg.asp?

Dest=G1&Aid=&Gid=&Lid=&Sid=&Did=&Juris1=&Event=&Year=

&Gloss=&Sub=&Tab=&Entry=&Guide=SouthCarolina.ASP

DearMYRTLE: I think the link is too large to fit in this chat room.... but once yuo click on one of these research outlines, you can find out all sorts of info about HOW TO DO RESEARCH in the state specified. This outline describes major sources of information about families from South Carolina. As you read this outline, study the United States Research Outline (30972), which will help you understand terminology and the contents and uses of genealogical record I am going to click on COURT RECORDS.... UNK can you do that as well?

Unk_Hiram: Yup

DearMYRTLE: CONTRARY what was the NAME of the court in SOUTH CAROLINA?

Contrary: Court of Common Pleas

DearMYRTLE: ok..... UNK would you find a PARAGRAPH on the Court of COmmon Pleas and COPY and paste it to this chat room?

DearMYRTLE: Prior to 1769, proprietary and crown courts were convened at Charleston. These were known as the General Court and the Grand Council. From 1769 to 1772 a circuit court system was begun. Judicial districts began to keep records for some courts, although

Unk_Hiram: Working on it

DearMYRTLE: records were still filed in Charleston. After 1780 the records were kept in the various courthouses. Major South Carolina courts that kept records of genealogical value included the following. (Other courts are mentioned in the “Probate” section of this outline.)

<DearMYRTLE notes that she is copying and pasting exact text from the RESEARCH OUTLINE>

DearMYRTLE: ONE could ALSO copy/paste this info to NOTES for an individual in your Family Tree Maker or whatever genealogy program you use.

DearMYRTLE: IS ANYONE THERE????

DearMYRTLE: its AWFULLY QUIET!

DearMYRTLE: 1671-1790s Court of Chancery handled land and inheritance matters for the entire colony. The Family History Library has some chancery court records, later known as equity records.

Bits: here!!!! and listening intently

DearMYRTLE: UNK's COURT OF COMMON PLEAS is NEXT in the SC Research outline.

DearMYRTLE: THANKS Bits!

BRATttitude: listening

Contrary: Me too

Sharon: all ears

Mike: Following along...

Katitude: ere too!

<DearMYRTLE hands out more chocolate chip cookies.>

DearMYRTLE: UNK is hanging up .....ANYONE else able to copy/paste that paragraph on the COURT OF COMMON PLEAS while UNK hiram is locked up?

[ Lobby: <<< <ZONG!> Unk_Hiram beams out of Lobby. ]

DearMYRTLE: 1703-pres. Court of Common Pleas was a statewide court until 1790 when each district established a separate court with jurisdiction over guardianship and civil matters. The Family History Library has many of these records.

[ Lobby: >>> <ZONG!> Unk_Hiram beams into Lobby. ]

DearMYRTLE: 1769-pres. Circuit courts have had district or countywide jurisdiction in criminal cases and some civil cases. Many of these records, on microfilm, are at the Family History Library.

Unk_Hiram: Court of common pleas, South Carolina
A court that had statewide jurisdiction over guardianship and civil cases until 1790, when district courts assumed these cases. Courts of common pleas continue to operate today.

DearMYRTLE: 1769-pres. Court of General Sessions was a statewide court until 1790, when each district established a separate court. These courts had jurisdiction over criminal cases. The Family History Library has a good collection of these records on microfilm. 1785-1798 County courts had jurisdiction over minor civil and criminal matters. The Family History Library has many of these records. (The records of the county courts temporarily established in 1683 no longer exist). 1791-1900 Courts of equity had countywide jurisdiction over property matters. Many of the records are available at the Family History Library. NOW. I didn't type all that... but that sort of information was FOUND in the SC Research Outline.... on the web at http://www.familysearch.org I clicked on the SEARCH tab (didn't type in an ancestor's name)
CLICKED on the words RESEARCH HELP then clicked on the letter "S" and scrolled down until I could see the SOUTH CAROLINA RESEARCH OUTLINE.

DearMYRTLE: So you are beginning to see that we can FIND AUTHORATATIVE info on WHAT types of courts there were in SC by using the SC Research Outline produced by the Family History Library.
SOOOOO if you dont' have a wonderful printed booklet, link CONTRARY found, you have SOME PLACE to locate some HOW/WHERE to research "HELP" online. Think of this for YOUR ancestors's states
MORE FROM THE SC RESEARCH OUTLINE: For more information about court procedures and records see: Bondurant, Mary. “A Guide to South Carolina Court Records,” in Family Puzzlers, no. 791 (16 Dec. 1982). Danielsville, Ga: Heritage Papers. (FHL book 973 B2f.)

DearMYRTLE: What does the "FHL Book 973 B2f" mean?

Unk_Hiram: Family History Library Book 973
B 2nd floor

DearMYRTLE: heheheeeeeeeeeee.......

DearMYRTLE: ITs the call number for the book in the FAMILY HISTORY LIBRARY.

DearMYRTLE: that FAMILY PUZZLERS is a magazine that was BOUND for the year 1982... and that is how the library cataloged.

DearMYRTLE: B2floor not true... you are SOOOO CUTE, Unk!

Unk_Hiram: Ok, folks any last minute questions, we have run a bit long tonight, but covered a lot of good material Myrt, I was giving it a good try (GRIN)

DearMYRTLE: Just want you to know that the LIBRARY you use might not use the same cataloging system.

DearMYRTLE: GOSH.... it HAS been a LONG night....

Mike: Great job Myrtle

DearMYRTLE: Thanks.....

Sharon: Thank you so much Myrtle

DearMYRTLE: MY summary was that I am going to ADVISE the researcher to provide MORE INFO when posting a QUERY and FIND OUT HOW to do research by looking at the RESEARCH OUTLINES at http://www.familysearch.org

DearMYRTLE: I would like to take you on another vIRTUAL TOUR of a genealogy web site

Contrary: Thanks Myrtle....was very informative and lots of fun

DearMYRTLE: NEXT month when I stop by....
we can switch back and forth between screens like this again if you like.

DearMYRTLE: GOOD luck Contrary1.

DearMYRTLE: in the mean time look for UNCLE HIRAM
on my internet radio show.

DearMYRTLE: thanks KaT!