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Haplogroup R1b (DYS390=23)

The Atlantic Modal Haplotype has many variants. Any basic haplotype that differs from

the AMH values of 14-12-24-11-13-13 by a single step, on any marker, in any direction, is

still considered part of AMH. Most of the haplotypes below exhibit the basic marker

values 14-12-23-11-13-13, which puts them in that category.

The Heyer study of 1997 recorded a mutation rate of zero for DYS390 and DYS393.

Although the DYS390 marker has not exhibited a mutation rate as consistently low as

DYS393 in other studies, the results of the Heyer study suggest that it is a relatively

stable marker. As such, particular values of DYS390 may be acquired less often by

random mutation, and therefore may be more likely to reflect a shared ancestry among

the haplotypes that exhibit them.

Although the Atlantic Modal Haplotype unquestionably originated in Western Europe,

Western Europe is a large place notorious for its cultural diversity. Most scientists apply

Occam's Razor when speculating about the origin of R1b haplotypes found among

persons of British descent. They say that, since the original population of Britain was

most likely R1b, then a person of British descent with that haplotype is descended from

that population.

We think that is a simplistic approach. Also, since we are not scientists and have no

reputation to protect, we are free to speculate a little more adventurously. We have analyzed the

geographical match patterns of DYS390=23 haplotypes in the YSTR, and then compared them

with the geographical match patterns of more modal AMH variations.

We have reached the conclusion that, although DYS390=23 haplotypes may indeed still have

an origin among the aboriginal or "Celtic" natives of Britain, they are more likely than many other

AMH variations to have arrived in Britain from somewhere else. In this case, from the homeland

of the Anglo-Saxons and the Danes - in Denmark, the northern coast of The Netherlands, and

western and northern Germany. This is entirely feasible in view of the fact that up to 40 and 50

percent of the haplotypes found in these areas are R1b.

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #21

The five highest frequencies in European locales fall in Denmark, Pomerania and Hamburg

(both in Northern Germany), Alsace (which borders on Germany), and Asturias (which,

although largely Celtic, was once controlled by the Suevi, and was later a stronghold of

the Visigoths). It also has many matches in the U.S.A. and Latin America,

and other matches in both Germanic and Iberian locales.

This has the earmarks of a haplotype that may have come to Britain with

the Anglo-Saxons. However, due to the large number of matches among Hispanic

and Iberian samples, it could easily have come to Britain from other sources.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 12 28 23 11 13 13 - -

Geographical Locale

%
Maryland [Hispanic-American] 3.85
Denmark 3.18
Greifswald, Pomerania 2.40
Asturias, Northern Spain 2.22
Virginia [European-American] 1.64
New York City [Hispanic-American] 1.33
New York City [European-American] 1.30
Strasbourg, Alsace 1.01
Buenos Aires, Argentina [European] 1.00
Hamburg, Northern Germany .88
Zaragoza, Aragon .83
Pyrenees, Spain .75
Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt .71
Bogota, Colombia [European] .68
Madrid, Central-East Spain .68
Sao Paulo, Brazil [European] .67
Tuscany, Italy .46
Tyrol, Austria .44
Warsaw, Poland .42
London, England .40
Munich, Bavaria .40
Gdansk, Northern Poland .37
Argentina [European] .33
Antioquia, Colombia [European] .25
Berlin, Brandenburg .18

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #22

Among the top ten frequencies for this haplotype, four occur in Denmark, Sweden and Saxony. Two occur among

Indo-Iranian populations, one falls among Slovakian gypsies, and two occur in Northern Italy. Only one of the top ten

falls in Iberia, and no matches occur in England or Ireland.

This haplotype most likely came to Britain with the Anglo-Saxons or the Danes, but it does have numerous matches in

Western Asia, Eastern Europe and Italy. These matches suggest that this haplotype might also have come to Britain

with Roman troops and settlers. It does not appear to have a classic "Celtic" or Iberian origin.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 30 23 10 13 13 - -

Geographical Locale

%
Denmark 3.17
Vasterbotten, Sweden 2.44
Eastern Slovakia [Romani] 1.59
Kurds, Iraq 1.59
Dresden, Saxony 1.47
Leipzig, Saxony 1.36
Tehran, Iran 1.25
Andulacia, Southern Spain 1.23
Liguria, Italy 1.23
Emilia Romagna, Italy 1.12
Leiden, Netherlands 1.04
Sicily, Italy 1.01
Central Anatolia, Turkey .91
Sao Paulo, Brazil [European] .89
El Salvador .83
Lyon, France .80
Choco, Colombia [African] .75
Bogota, Colombia [European] .68
Greifswald, Pomerania .48
Tuscany, Italy .46
Latium, Italy .45
Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt .35
Gdansk, Northern Poland .18
Chemnitz, Saxony .12

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #23

This partial haplotype is very widespread, which makes interpretation difficult and certainty impossible.

In non-European samples, it appears most commonly in the

Southern United States. Its ten highest frequencies in European samples include three in The

Netherlands - three of the five highest, in fact - four in Iberia, and two in Northern Italy. It also

occurs once in a Southern Norway sample of 25.

Since R1b haplotypes with DYS390 values of 23 often have a strong North Sea-Germanic bias,

the high frequencies in Southern Norway and The Netherlands could suggest an Anglo-Saxon,

Frisian or Scandinavian origin. That is consistent with high freqnencies in the Southern U.S. -

and in London, which comes in at eleventh place among European locales.

However, German locales are conspicuously absent from the higher frequencies. The two main

spikes among European samples occur in The Netherlands and Iberia. This could suggest an origin

among the Flemish, or Normans of Sephardic origin.

Another possibility, one which is always present, is that this haplotype came to Britain from

Iberia in prehistoric times.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 14 30 23 11 13 13 - -

Geographical Locale

%
Groningen, Netherlands 6.25
Florida [European-American] 4.55
Southern Norway 4.00
Netherlands 3.45
Louisiana [European-American] 3.23
Indiana [European-American] 2.94
Texas [European-American] 2.56
Asturias, Northern Spain 2.22
Virginia [Hispanic-American] 2.17
Zeeland, Netherlands 2.17
Florida [African-American] 2.08
Madrid, Spain 2.03
Umbria, Italy 1.96
Northern Spain [Basque] 1.79
Lombardy, Italy 1.65
Virginia [European-American] 1.64
Central Portugal 1.62
London, England 1.62
Valencia, Spain 1.43
Barcelona, Catalonia 1.34
Bydogoszcz, Northern Poland 1.19
Sao Paulo, Brazil [European] 1.12
Bern, Switzerland 1.10
Strasbourg, Alsace 1.01
Cape Town, South Africa [European] 1.00
Caucasus [Armenian] 1.00
Cordoba, Argentina 1.00
Rostock, Mecklenburg .99
Mainz, Rhineland-Palatinate .96
Freiburg, Baden-Wurttemburg .92
Latium, Italy .90
Southern Portugal .89
Zaragoza, Aragon .83
Brussels, Belgium .80
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [European] .79
Leipzig, Saxony .76
Pyrenees, Spain .75
Antioquia, Colombia [European] .74
Cologne, Westphalia .74
Berlin, Brandenburg .73
Argentina [European] .66
Stuttgart, Baden-Wurttemburg .65
Budapest, Hungary .51
Muenster, Westphalia .51
Chemnitz, Saxony .49
Sweden .49
Greifswald, Pomerania .48
Tyrol, Austria .44

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #24

This haplotype below is rare, with only single matches in only four locales. Three out of four of those locales, however,

fall in Scandinavia, North Germany and The Low Countries.

This haplotype most likely originated with the Danes, the Flemish, the Anglo-Saxons or some other Teutonic group.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 28 23 11 13 13 11 15

Geographical Locale

%
Vasterbotten, Sweden 2.44
Veneto, Italy .83
Brussels, Belgium .80
Leipzig, Saxony .15

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #25

The match pattern for the haplotype below is largely Germanic. The highest number of matches falls in Lombardy,

but those also are probably Germanic. The only Iberian match falls in Zaragoza, where Visigoths settled and where the

Normans were active in the 12th century. This haplotype most likely came to Britain with the Anglo-Saxons, Danes,

Normans or Flemish.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 12 29 23 11 13 13 11 14

Geographical Locale

%
Groningen, Netherlands 2.08
Uppsala, Sweden 1.75
Netherlands 1.15
Lombardy, Italy 1.10
Cape Town, South Africa [European] 1.00
Zaragoza, Aragon .83
Dusseldorf, Westphalia .67
Leipzig, Saxony .15
Chemnitz, Saxony .12

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #26

The match pattern for the haplotype below is also largely Teutonic. Of the top then European locales, two are Scandinavian,

two fall in The Low Countries, two in Western Germany, and one each falls in London and Paris. This one could be

Anglo-Saxon, but it could also be Norman or Flemish. There is even a Gothic element evident, not only in Gotland, but

also in Liguria (northwestern Italy) and Portugal.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 30 23 11 13 13 11 14

Geographical Locale

%
Gotland 2.44
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [European] 2.38
Friesland, Netherlands 2.27
Brussels, Belgium 1.60
Liguria, Italy 1.23
Eastern Norway 1.18
Freiburg, Baden-Wurttemburg 1.15
London, England 1.05
Cape Town, South Africa [European] 1.00
Caucasus [Armenian] 1.00
Paris, France .92
Southern Portugal .89
Cologne, Westphalia .74
Dusseldorf, Westphalia .67
Switzerland .67
Leipzig, Saxony .61
Sicily, Southern Italy .49
Latium, Italy .45
Stuttgart, Baden-Wurttemburg .44
Munich, Bavaria .40
Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt .35
Finland .25
Sweden .25
Gdansk, Poland .18
Chemnitz, Saxony .12

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #27

The match pattern for the haplotype below is unambiguously Teutonic. It may have come to Britain with the Flemish, the

Danes, the Anglo-Saxons, the Normans, the Norse, or even Roman auxiliaries of Gothic or Herulian origin. There are, in fact,

so many possibilities within a general Teutonic origin that even establishing that it is Teutonic scarcely narrows things down.

It is most likely not Celtic or Iberian, even though it could be.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11 13

Geographical Locale

%
Gotland 2.44
Netherlands 2.30
Friesland, Netherlands 2.27
Bologna, Italy 1.96
Denmark 1.59
Graz, Austria 1.54
Dusseldorf, Westphalia 1.33
Texas [European-American] 1.28
Eastern Norway 1.18
Caceres, Spain 1.00
Tyrol, Austria .87
Wroclaw, Poland .83
Brussels, Belgium .80
Cologne, Westphalia .74
Freiburg, Baden-Wurttemburg .69
Madrid, Spain .68
New York City [African-American] .67
Sao Paulo, Brazil [European] .44
Stuttgart, Baden-Wurttemburg .44
London, England .35
Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt .35
Argentina [European] .34
Berlin, Brandenburg .18
Leipzig, Saxony .15
Chemnitz, Saxony .12

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #28

Despite the high frequency match among Hispanic Americans, the haplotype below appears centered in The Low

Countries and The North Sea coast. It could be Flemish or Danish.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 14 29 23 11 13 13 11 14

Geographical Locale

%
Virginia [Hispanic-American] 2.17
Denmark 1.59
Netherlands 1.15
Bern, Switzerland 1.10
Brussels, Belgium .80
Greifswald, Pomerania .48

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #29

This haplotype scores most of its matches in Germanic language countries and Eastern Europe. The Netherlands, Norway

and Germany are included. This haplotype most likely came to Britain with such groups as the Danes, the Anglo-Saxons,

the Flemish or the Norse.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 28 23 10 13 13 11 14

Geographical Locale

%
Caucasus [Lezginian] 5.26
Virginia [European-American] 1.64
Western Norway 1.56
Netherlands 1.15
Ljubljana, Slovenia .83
Wroclaw, Poland .83
Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt .71
Bogota, Colombia [European] .68
Dusseldorf, Westphalia .67
New York City [European-American] .65
Bydgoszcz, Poland .59
Warsaw, Poland .42
Chemnitz, Saxony .37
Leipzig, Saxony .30
Stuttgart, Baden-Wurttemburg .22

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #30

The haplotype below is found almost exclusively in Germany, Netherlands, England and Eastern France.

It most likely came to Britain with the Anglo-Saxons or the Flemish.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 29 23 11 13 13 10 -

Geographical Locale

%
Netherlands 1.15
Strasbourg, Alsace 1.01
Rostock, Mecklenburg .99
Mainz, Rhineland-Palatinate .96
New York City, USA [European] .67
Stuttgart, Baden-Wurttemburg .44
Munich, Bavaria .36
London, England [Afro-Caribbean] .34
Antioquia, Colombia [European] .25
Freiburg, Baden-Wurttemburg .23
Chemnitz, Saxony .12

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #31

The match pattern below has been prepared for a "Border Reiver" haplotype that has been SNP-tested as R1b,

but is nevertheless unusual, with a DYS392 value of 12 and DYS385a,b values of 14,14. Since it is difficult to exclude

convergent non-R1b haplotypes from any search in YHRD on these marker values, we have added a DYS385a value

of 11 to at least eliminate likely "I" haplotypes.

The resulting match pattern is not at all inconsistent with a typical "North Sea Celtic" R1b with a DYS390 value

of 23. There are multiple low frequency hits in Northern Germany and Saxony, 3 matches in Colombia, and one

among ethnic Hungarians in Romany. This could suggest either an Anglo-Saxon, prehistoric Iberian or Iron Age

Celtic origin.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 28 23 11 12 13 11 -

Geographical Locale

%
Virginia [European-American] 1.64
Corund, Romania [Szekely] 1.02
Antioquia, Colombia [European] .74
Halle, Saxony-Anhalt .43
Hamburg, Northern Germany .36
Chemnitz, Saxony .12

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #32

The match pattern below is actually quite scattered and it is difficult to say anything conclusive about it.

This haplotype was prepared for a "Border Reiver" participant whose DYS385a,b values were 11,11 - a combination

sometimes associated with R1b samples from Southern Europe. The only match from the table below that had those

values was the one from Central Portugal. The FTDNA REO matches for the full 12 marker haplotype includes hits in

Italy and Africa - as well as a couple from Britain.

Interestingly, we have recently learned that R1b haplotypes may sometimes converge with haplotypes belonging to

the African haplogroup "A", which may provide an alternate explanation for why a few apparently R1b haplotypes seem

to occur disproportionately among African-American samples in YHRD. However, although there is a definite African

component in the genetic composition of the Portuguese, that is probably not what we're seeing here.

These matches, if all truly R1b, suggest that either a Celtiberian or "North Sea Celtic" origin for this haplotype

is equally possible.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 27 23 10 13 13 - -

Geographical Locale

%
Southern Portugal .89
Ireland .65
Denmark .40
Central Portugal .20
Berlin, Brandenburg .18

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #33

Most of the matches below fall in Germany or Northern Italy, suggesting a Germanic or Gothic origin,

This haplotype most likely came to Britain with the Anglo-Saxons.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 29 23 11 13 13 11 16

Geographical Locale

%
Veneto, Italy .83
Munich, Germany .71
Verona, Italy .65
Tyrol, Austria .43
Andulacia/Extramadura, Spain .26
Berlin, Germany .18
Chemnitz, Germany .12
Leipzig, Germany .12

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #34

Of the sixteen European matches for the haplotype below, all but three fall in Teutonic nations (e.g., Germany,

Austria, Norway, Switzerland) or in countries adjacent to such nations (Slovenia, Poland). This is consistent with

the usual spread for a DYS390=23 R1b and suggests an Anglo-Saxon, Flemish or Danish origin.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 29 23 10 13 13 12 14

Geographical Locale

%
Formosa, Argentina [European] 1.85
Asturias, Spain 1.67
Texas [European-American] 1.28
Eastern Norway 1.18
Bern, Switzerland 1.10
Cordoba, Argentina [European] 1.00
Mainz, Germany .96
Lausanne, Switzerland .93
Valencia, Spain .71
Ljubljana, Slovenia .56
Cologne, Germany .43
Tyrol, Austria .43
Warsaw, Poland .42
Hamburg, Germany .36
Freiburg, Germany .23
Northern Portugal .18
Gdansk, Poland .14
Chemnitz, Germany .12
Leipzig, Germany .12

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #35

The geographical distribution of the haplotype below conforms with both the Alpine variant (14-23-10-13-13) and the

North Sea Celtic variant (14-23-11-13-13). Matches in both Switzerland and Northern Germany could be interpreted

as either Celtic or Anglo-Danish in origin.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 14 30 23 10 13 13 11 15

Geographical Locale

%
Switzerland .67
Rostock, Germany .41
USA [European-American] .39

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #36

The haplotype below has a very broad geographical range, with matches occurring nearly everywhere in Europe.

The locales include Sweden, Northern Italy, Austria, Romania, Latin America, Bulgaria, Belgium, France, Spain,

Germany, Denmark, England and Norway. On balance, however, the range favors Germanophone nations

over Iberia, and most likely has the same origin as other "North Sea Celtic" haplotypes.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
15 13 29 23 10 13 13 11 14

Geographical Locale

%
Uppsala, Sweden 3.64
Oregon, USA [Hispanic American] 2.38
Emilia Romagna, Italy 2.25
Graz, Austria 1.54
Lunca de Sus, Romania [Csango] 1.19
Valle de Cauca, Colombia [Mestizo] .97
Lausanne, Switzerland .93
Bulgaria .82
Brussels, Belgium .80
Lyon, France .80
Pyrenees, Spain .75
Cologne, Germany .43
Denmark .40
Munich, Germany .36
London, England .35
Central Norway .32
USA [African American] .28
Chemnitz, Germany .24
Sao Paulo, Brazil [European] .22
Berlin, Germany .18
Leipzig, Germany .12

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #37

The haplotype below has only two European matches, but both suggest an origin

among the Anglo-Saxons or the Danes.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
14 13 29 23 11 13 13 12 12

Geographical Locale

%
Chemnitz, Germany [German] .13
Gdansk, Poland [Polish] .11

R1b DYS390=23 Haplotype #38

The match pattern below has been prepared for a Border Reiver haplotype that is clearly R1b, but

exhibits an atypical DYS392 value of 11. It appears to be largely Mediterranean in origin.

19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b 438
14 15 31 23 11 - 13 11 14 12

Geographical Locale

%
Majorca, Spain [Spanish] 1.09
Puglia, Italy [Italian] 1.02