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Editor's Note: The below messages have been slightly edited to correct and distinguish the differences between R1b3 (M65) and R1b4 (M73):
----- Original Message -----
From: Bennett Greenspan
To: David B. Strong
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 4:42 PM
Subject: FW: Special Request for Information

Hi David
 
[M65 (R1b3) and/or M73 [R1b4] are not SNPs] offered at this time by anyone that I know of...It's just to far down the tree to be  in the real limelight, yet, however it will be tested, by us, eventually, as it is in the R1b super clade that 50% of our customers are in...so it is worthwhile, just not at the moment.
 
I have placed as much of the info on the matches you have asked about below.  The defining aspect of all these samples is that they have a 12 at DYS 393...very uncommon for R1b, as 90+ % of R1 is found as a 13.
 
Kit Name 3
9
3
3
9
0
1
9
3
9
1
3
8
5
a
3
8
5
b
4
2
6
3
8
8
4
3
9
3
8
9
|
1
3
9
2
3
8
9
|
2
4
5
8
4
5
9
a
4
5
9
b
4
5
5
4
5
4
4
4
7
4
3
7
4
4
8
4
4
9
4
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4
a
4
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4
b
4
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4
c
4
6
4
d
4
6
4
e
4
6
4
f
4
6
4
g
4
6
0
G
A
T
A

H
4
Y
C
A

I
I

a
Y
C
A

I
I

b
4
5
6
6
0
7
5
7
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0
C
D
Y

a
C
D
Y

b
4
4
2
4
3
8
Elliott 12 24 14 12 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 30                                                  
Siberian 12 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                  
Siberian 12 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                  
Iceland 12 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                  
Hungary 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30

E-mail any time.

Best Regards,

Bennett Greenspan
President
Family Tree DNA
www.FamilyTreeDNA.com

"History Unearthed Daily"

Have you already added your results to www.Ysearch.org, the FTDNA sponsored public database? If not yet, please go to your FTDNA personal page and on the left side you will see an explanation and a link for the upload.

-----Original Message-----
From: David B. Strong
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 4:10 PM
To: Bennett Greenspan
Subject: Special Request for Information

Hello Bennett:
 
I am writing this message to request some additional information from your database, relative to a discussion I have been having with certain individuals.   Contemporaneously with this message, I have [separately forwarded] a copy of a message sent in reply to James V. Elliott, which was also copied, inter alia, to Bonnie Schrack.    You will note, in part,  mention that James Elliott's "Y-DNA haplotype is so rare that (his) closest matches in the FTDNA Haplogroup Database are two step mutations, namely 5 Native Siberians, 1 Icelander and 1 Hungarian", and that this coincides with information which has been provided to me and three other members of the Strong, etc., surname DNA Study. 
 
As [separately] mentioned in my message to James Elliott, we wish to obtain the haplotype marker values for the referenced Native Siberians, the Icelander, and the Hungarian.   We do not particularly wish to know their identities at this point.   However, we are most interested in learning whether their haplotypes are consistent with the hypotheses we are developing re the possibility that we are all members of [...Haplotype 35], and possibly subclade M73 [R1b4] of R1b.   This may yield some interesting possible "deep roots" findings re various Anglo-Scottish border clans and families.   To this end, we would also appreciate any help you can provide in identifying the modal average marker values for [...Haplotype 35] as well as for subclade M73 [R1b4] of R1b. 
 
Note particularly James Elliott's mention that he read "the recent Cinnogli paper about R1b3 in Anatolia, and discovered that R1b3 has been tentatively divided into two groups - one with a modal DYS393 value of 13 (Haplotype or AMH), and the other (Haplotype) with a modal DYS393 value of 12" ; and note also Bonnie Schrack's comment "The clade defined by the SNP M73 [R1b4] is supposed to be found in Central Asia and/or Siberia, according to the data in Underhill et al, "Y chromosome sequence variation and the history of human populations,"  from Nature Genetics, vol 26, Nov. 2000.    They found 6 R1b people with M73 [R1b4] in Central Asia/Siberia. "   The questions arise whether we are talking about the same 6 Native Siberians, and whether, if so, the , Donegal Bay Strong group, James Elliott, and others with the particular marker pattern involved may belong to the same subclade.
 
I hope you will be able to accomodate us by providing the requested information.   Further, I would appreciate being advised whether there is any way we could be SNP tested for the [M65 (R1b3) and/or the M73 [R1b4]] subclades of R1b.
 
Regards
Dave Strong  (DNA Participant # 5811) ...
DNA Study Coordinator & webmaster:
Book I:   RESEARCHING STRONG(E) AND STRANG(E)
IN GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/contents.htm
Database and manuscript.  See especially Chap. 13,
entitled "Lineages"; and Chapt. 15, "DNA Study"
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/dnaresults.htm
&
Book II:  THE DONEGAL STRONG PUZZLE:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/indxdrft.htm
Research and study of Counties Donegal and Fermanagh Strongs and
related families.
==============================================================