From: "gabriel sheridan"
To: rossstreet22@hotmail.com
From: "gabriel sheridan"
To: sheridangabriel@hotmail.com
Subject: The Story of the Coumans'
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:05:30 -0700
Juanita, I thought I would tell you the full story of what I learned of the Coumans families in Ireland, France, Scotland, Wales
England etc. The name originates from County Roscommon in Ireland. it was taken asa last name by the family of St. Common. He was
priest/monk in the late 600 A.D. early 700's. Roscommon means, in gaelic, the woods"Ros" of Common or St. Common(hence our Coumans,
Cummins etc.) His family was so proud of him that they began calling themselves after him. The County is named for the area
where he lived. Our Gaelic families spread all over the Gaelic world, which included Gaul(now France), Ireland,Scotland, Wales,
Belgium, Britain(England), southern Germany etc. The first Coumans in the new world that I have been able to find a record concerning
was one "Jehan(John, Juan,Jean) Commins who is listed as a crew member on the second voyage of Jacques Cartier of 1542 into present
Canada all the way to the Iroquois village of Hochelaga( now present day Montreal).All the crew members were part of the
extended family of Jacques Cartier. Jehan Commins( as was Jacques Cartier) was from the Gaelic speaking section of France known as
Britagne(Brittany etc.) from St. Malo(the old capital before Nantes the present capital,) Do not think that the Irish do not have a
French connection--we certainly do. St. Patrick who brought us our Catholic faith was born either in Britain or in Brittany,
France(each region claims him). They only know for sure the name of a village, not where it was located. However they do know for
sure that his Uncle, St. Germain, was a bishop there in Gaul, and is referred to as St. Germain D'Auxelrrois. This name will become
important also in the history of the founding of Canada. My tenth great grandfather, Louis Hebert, was born into this parish church,
and Samuel de Champlain was married in this church,( still standing, one block from the Palais de Louvre, Paris). It was the
parish church for all those who worked for the Royal family at the palace. Louis Hebert's father(Nicolas) was an apothecary to the
royal family and in particular to Queen Catherine de Medici. Samuel De Champlain married a ten year old girl, Helene de Boule, daughter
of the Secretary de Chambre(the one who guarded over the King's bed while he slept.) This King was Henry IV(the Navarre Bourbon King)
who said, "Paris was worth a mass" and became a Catholic once on the throne. His secretary of the bedchambre,(as was most of his
most trusted staff, were Calvanists-protestants). Along with the marriage came a dowery of 10,000 livres tournois(silver), which he
would use to found his dream of a French colony. Samuell de Champlain and his wife were the godparents of the first child born
in Canada to live, Helene Desportes, born July 7, 1620. I descend from her also. St. Patrick(not his real name, but one given him by
the Pope,"patricius"--patrician as the noble families of Italy were called--as he was so tall(probably only about six foot, but tall to
the Pope). He was taken captive by, it is believed, Niall of the Nine hostages, High King of the section in the North of Ireland
called Ulster. If you have O'Neil in your blood, you descend from him. I do.Roscommon borders this Kingdom of Ulster. Jacques
Cartier on his first voyage to the New World had taken captive three native Iroquois boys, including, Donnacona, son of Stadacona,
Chief of the Iroquois on the Atlantic Coast. These boys were brought to Paris where they learned to Speak French and the
culture. On Cartier's second voyage,much to the astonishment of Stadaconna, the boys were returned. It was Donnacona who
accompanied Cartier on the second voyage, and decided, much against his father's wishes, to show Cartier the entrance to the great
river that would lead to China. Cartier, had convinced him that the French did not want their land. This was true. All the French
wanted was the passage to China, where all the wealth of world awaited those who could find the water route there. So on the feast
of St. Lawrence on this second Voyage, Cartier's boat with Jehan Cummins aboard entered the River now called the St. Lawrence. In a
section where the river got narrow (Quebec is the Iroquois word for this) was a small Native Village on the base of hill. Cartier asked
Donnacona the name of that place.He said, "Canada" which in Iroquois meant, "our village". Cartier wrote this down, and there
you have that.Cartier and his crew only got to the section now called 'laChine"--(China) outside present day Montreal. The Rapids
of the River prevented his boat from continuing. Our beloved Quebec and Canada fell to the English more than once, but finally, in
1759, after months of bombardment from ships of the largest navy in the world at the time. For all the tragic loss that occurred, two
amazingly good things did happen. When Canada and Quebec fell on the farm of my 11th Great grandfather', Abraham Martin called the
Scotsman(the Plains of Abraham) it set in motion two events that would change the world forever. One, the Irish would come into
Canada seeking a better world where Catholics could actually own the land. The other was that the English, in their hubris, decided
that the Colonies it controlled would have to pay for troops to guard their new possession. They had a vast area with a hostile,
Catholic and French population. To do this they decided first on a "Stamp Tax'--a duty on all documents in the 13 Colonies. This was
met with great resisitance in the Colonies and was finally revoked. Their next scheme was a Tax on Tea--This led to the infamous Boston
Tea party-and the American Revolution started. With no where to send it's prisioners(they rotted in boats moored along the Thames
in London),--the prision colonies of South and North Carolina being closed, Australia suddently arose as a possiblity, You are there
because of this. So, God does have a sense of the bigger picture--and he has a sense of humor! He made the Irish.
Gabe
-----Original Message-----
From: juanita johnston [mailto:rossstreet22@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:24 AM
To: sheridangabriel@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: FW: The Story of the Coumans'
Gabe,
what a great, amazing story. I love it. Of course you are invited to our Healy Reunion at St Mary's assembly hall on 5 Feb 2005, Thanks for the story. I read that Cummin means little crooked one and that the Saint was such a one. Is that right?
Juanita
From: "juanita johnston" <rossstreet22@hotmail.com>
To: sheridangabriel@hotmail.com
Subject: The Story of the Coumans'
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:24:09 +0000
Hi Juanita,
i do not know if Cummin as a crooked one refers to the Saint or
not. I know that descend from Brian Boru and that Brian means the raven and
Boru the brave. In Scottish, I descend from Abraham Martin called the
Scotsman(Abraham Martin dit Eccoussie). The Martins were one of the five
Septs who founded the Clan Cameron in the early 1300's. Cameron means
crooked nose in Gaelic, so it may not may not have much to with character as
much as looks.It was Brian Boru that ordered, as the Ard Re, or High King,
that the Irish take two names(i.e. a last name). He died at the Battle of
Clontarf in 1012. A.D. All those with the last name of O'Brien in Ireland
descend from him. i was able to access the Tall Trees Deep Roots site thanks
to help from Case. It dawned on me after I written the e mail yesterday that
the dates of January 1827 when John Coumans had petitioned the Canadian
government for a land grant in New Brunswick, if ten years is added to that,
would make it Jannuary 1837. John Coumans and his family left New Brunswick
for Ontario right after the birth of my great grandmother, Elizabeth, born
May 28, 1836. If he had been granted the land and was making the ten year
committment to pay for it, the time would be up in 1837. This would be
perfect timing for him to sell that land and buy a place next to the
Sargeants in far away, North Easthope township, Huron County, Ontario,
Perhaps the land was richer, the proximity of a closer catholic church in
Goderich, Huron County, and the opening up of the area would be the ideal
place to help his children get their start and own their own farms as they
married. They all did when Chepstow, Bruce County opened up in 1852, as did
other members of my family(the Tooheys). I forgot to answer your question
on the amount of land your family owned in Ireland. I am sure if they were
catholics that they did not own the acreage but only leased it. Often they
would lease the land for a period of the "life of the youngest children" to
guarantee a long lease on the land. I do know that Lord Adare, Edwin Quinn,
who became a Catholic as an adult, had to do some quite complicated land
arrangements to be able to keep his estate in Ireland. My O'Brien side of
the family lived on his townsland in Adare, County Limmerick, Ireland. His
wife and son stayed Church of England so that they could keep the title.
This is the beautiful Adare manor, now made into a hotel in Adare, Limerick.
i have been there, along with other O'Brien Castles in Ireland.
Gabe
-----
Subj: James Keyes,Robert Keyes, and William Keyes
Date: 9/21/04 12:28:16 PM Central Daylight Time
From: sheridangabriel@hotmail.com
To: cvanderplas@cogeco.ca
Hello again Case, Thank you for showing me how to access your web site. I
found the reference to Anne Coumans marrying William Keyes. I have come
across her name in the past and have been trying to make the connections to
my family of Coumans( and to another family of Coumans' in Nova Scotia-i.e
Carol Coumans). Anne (Coumans) Keyes had a son born in County Cork, Ireland
in 1826. His name was William Keyes and he came to Canada and died in Bruce
county, Greenock Township on August 13, 1904. He had a first cousin, James
Keyes who had come to Canada in the year 1817 and settled in Beckwith
township in 1818 in the Ottawa Valley. Do you have the reference to that
James Keyes arrival, and do you know if he came as part of an exttended
family? I have seen records of extended families that came as groups into
the Ottawa Valley and who their sponors were. This is why I am interested in
this information. I descend from John Coumans and his wife Janes Sargeant.
John Coumans was a catholic, and his wife, Janes Sargeant became one. There
were other Sargeants that came over to Canada about this time and into the
Ottawa valley. They were Church of Ireland(or England), including one John
Sargeant and his wife who founded the town of Stratford, Perth County(once
called Huron County), Ontario. These counties adjoin Bruce County, where
both John Coumans and Janes Sargeant are buried(at the cemetery of St. Mary
Immaculate in Chepstow, Bruce County, Greenock township, Ontario. They rest
there with another pair of my great great grandparents, Patrick Toohey Sr.
and his wife, Mary Hughes, who came from Crossmolina, County Mayo, Ireland.
I believe that the Sargeant family(which had both Catholic and Church of
England members in the family, as does your branch of Keyes) that lived on
an adjoining farm in North Easthope, Ellice township, Huron County(now Perth
County), was the brother of my Jane Sargeant. I also believe that John
Sargeant that founded Stratford was another brother. Jane Sargeant was for
sure born in County Cork, Ireland. This is from her burial record of March
2, 1890(aged 90) at St. Mary Immaculate, Chepstow. It does not list where
John Coumans was born. John Coumans' oldest son was named Simon Coumans, and
by irish tradition, the first son is named after the father's father. I have
found a family of Simon Coumans who have a site on the web from County
Carlow, Ireland. However, they are one generation later than would be the
Simon Coumans I am looking to find. I know for sure that my John Coumans
was living starting in 1819 in New Brunswick. He applied for a grant of land
in January 1827 on the S.W. branch of the Miramichi River on the S.W. side.
In that application(the first record I have for him), it states that he is
married with one child, and has been in the province for 7 years. There is
also a Thomas Coumans in Nova Scotia, who was a Catholic who married Abigail
Pride in I believe 1823. He later became a Methodist, and then re canted
that and went back to being a catholic again before he died. My John Coumans
stayed in New Brunswick for an additional 10 years after the 1827
application for a grant of land( iIbelieve to satisfy the purcahse
requirements). About 1837 he moved his entire family(there were then 5
children with two more to be born later), to Huron County(now Perth, North
Easthope), Ontario onto 100 acres adjoining William Sargeant's 240 acres.
They attended church at St. Peter's (Catholic) Goderich until, like your
family, they applied for land purchase upon the opening of Bruce County,
Greenock township. My cousin, John Phelan Sr. had founded the town which
would become Chepstow, followed by John Coumans and his children. Each of
the seven children would own their own 100 acres for a total of 800 acres on
different Lots and Concessions center around and in Chepstow.The church and
cemetery are on John Coumans' 100 acres, Any information you might have on
the Sargeant or Coumans family would be greatly appreciated. I suspect that
all the Coumans' in Canada9with this particular spelling) are part of a
larger extended family, as are the Sargeants. Carol Coumans in Nova Scotia
did find a document that her, Thomas Coumans, great great grandfather, had
left the port of Wexford, Ireland. County Carlow, Ireland is land locked and
the closest port cities are Cork(city), Ireland and Wexford(city), Ireland.
Thank you for any help you may be able to offer. Gabe
--
Subj: RE: James Keyes,Robert Keyes, and William Keyes
Date: 9/21/04 8:58:05 PM Central Daylight Time
From: rossstreet22@hotmail.com
To: sheridangabriel@hotmail.com,
Hi Gabe et al,I hope Case replies with his perspective which may be different from mine. I hesitate to write mine out again, though because I wonder if I did it clearly enough, I'm doing it again. The beauty of emails is that you can skip through them if they are not what you are looking for, without having to listen to the bitter end!Our Australian perspective is that this information on parents William and Ann Coumans from Ireland and their son William born in Cork in 1826 may come from the 1781 Canadian Census and that there are some mistakes in it. We believe William's parents are Robert James Keyes and his wife Mary Cummins because:1. The 1881 Canadian Census lists a William Keyes, farmer and lists the wife and family described in Deep Roots and Tall Trees (DRTT) then gives information for a birthdate of 1829. This suits our jigsaw puzzle better. (Oh I'm so glad to be putting my case before a defence attorney! Now we'll see how good it is!). The Myshall babies of Robert James Keyes & Mary nee Cummins are: James 1823, Mary 1824, our Ann floats around somewhere here c1826, James 1827. Then there is a 5 year gap before James and Mary's Castlecomer babies: Thomas 1832, John 1840 and Robert 1842. So in that five year gap we put the William born in 1829 in Cork.2. Their Children's Names: William and his wife Mary Ann Saunders of Beckwith name their 3 sons: 1. Robert 1858, 2. James 1875 and 3. William John (called John) 1878. These children were born after Robert and Mary (we call his parents) arrive to join the group in Canada.Their daughters they name: Mary Jane 1860, Elizabeth 1862, Esther 1864, Sarah Ellen 1869. No daughter gets called Mary Ann after their Mother. These names fit into our Ann's names for her daughters eg Mary Elizabeth 1856, Sarah Jane 1857 etc.3. In DRTT, William John (our 1829) is the first cousin of John Keyes 1826 (the son of James who immigrated 1817 and married a Leighlinbridge girl in 1822 in Beckwith). So whoever his father is (William/Robert James) he is sibling to James (1786). William John is readily named in DRTT and with him is the story "Grandfather Keyes liked to graft trees" - no name - means the author's uncertainty of the name. Cousins William and John (1826) seem to be buddies because William had quite a range of male cousins to be compared with but John is selected - was it said that they were the same age (using an Irish ruler) - hence his 1826 birth became history?4. William's descendent via his eldest daughter Mary Jane's line (who is Denise Millington now of Gold Coast, AU) has the letter from our Ann complaining brother William never told me my father had died (1876). The letter wasn't written to brother William, but we presume was later sent to brother William, presumably to smarten him up.If William John was born in Cork in 1826 as the son of William Keyes and Ann nee Coumans then he is Ann's cousin. So why would his daughter receive and save Ann's letter?Over to you, Gabe.Juanita
Hi Juanita, Now it is begining to make sense. I did not realize that there
were two"Coumans, Cummins" lines through different females, Ann and Mary. I
am also really beginning to believe that the record stating that the
brothers, Thomas Coumans and John Coumans are dead, based upon the children
of Peter Coumans may not be accurate. The reason for this is that this
happened to my family once before, and out of Ontario, Canada. This is what
happened on my French Canadian side. My great grandfather, Seraphin Vezina
was the only child of Georges Vezina and Marie Lucina Hermine(called Armena)
Parent. He was born in 1840 in their log house in what is now St. Isidore,
in Prescott County, Ontario(Their daughter, my grandmother, Marie Azelie
always called the place St. Isidore de Prescott). St. Isidore is the patron
Saint of Farmers and was of Spainish origin.Seraphin's parents had married
in the church of St. Jean Baptiste, in L'Orignal(a moose), Ontario(this is
about 30 miles from the capital of Ottawa, Canada. Georges Vezina was from
Neuville, Quebec(15 miles from Quebec City,) and his wife, Josette Noiret
dit Picard was from Les Cedres, Soulanges, Quebec. They pioneered and
founded, along with Armena Parent's Uncle Edward Parent and my great great
grandfather, Magloire Parent, this town of St. Isidore.Although Serphin was
an only child, he did have 11 children. About 1880, his entire family(all 11
kids but without his mother) moved to Cheboygan, Michigan. His mother had
remarried after the death of his father, Georges Vezina to a man name
LaLonde in the church of St. Margaret of Scotland, in Glengarry County,
Ontario. She was rather old, and they had no children. However, when she
died, the local catholic priest signed an affidavit that she had no living
children. With no children, her entire estate went to the family of the
LaLonde's all based upon this "dead means dead".It was a tragic mistake, but
Seraphin lost his entire inheiritance. When I saw the reference from Sue
Snerish to the two sons, John and Thomas Coumans being dead, it flashed
right back in my mind. This being "dead" for the purpose of a sale of land
based upon a life estate of the two sons of Peter Cummins(Coumans), brought
it all back to me. Often when families left for a new country and did not
write and tell what was going on, people assumed they were dead, for real
estate purposes. I have been trying to make the connections to the Cummins
families of County Carlow, since they have the name, Simon Coumans, as a
family name, are catholic, and yes, Wexford (city) is one of the closest
ports of debarkation. I think that our family using the spelling," Coumans"
was a sort of clue to future generations as to whom they were.Some times you
get a feel for things, and I feel that I we are on to a connection here that
is very important for all of us. Even the tombstone of my John Coumans,
being spelled, Commons, as in St. Commons, is a sort of guide post to the
future. Maybe I am just dreaming, but I get the strangest feeling that this
is the key to our Coumans family.
.....
From: "juanita johnston" <rossstreet22@hotmail.com>
To: sheridangabriel@hotmail.com, cvanderplas@cogeco.ca, jctb@bigpond.net.au, henstock@apex.net.au
Subject: RE: James Keyes,Robert Keyes, and William Keyes
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 01:46:41 +0000
Hi Gabe et al,
I hope Case replies with his perspective which may be different from mine. I hesitate to write mine out again, though because I wonder if I did it clearly enough, I'm doing it again. The beauty of emails is that you can skip through them if they are not what you are looking for, without having to listen to the bitter end!
Our Australian perspective is that this information on parents William and Ann Coumans from Ireland and their son William born in Cork in 1826 may come from the 1781 Canadian Census and that there are some mistakes in it. We believe William's parents are Robert James Keyes and his wife Mary Cummins because:
1. The 1881 Canadian Census lists a William Keyes, farmer and lists the wife and family described in Deep Roots and Tall Trees (DRTT) then gives information for a birthdate of 1829. This suits our jigsaw puzzle better. (Oh I'm so glad to be putting my case before a defence attorney! Now we'll see how good it is!). The Myshall babies of Robert James Keyes & Mary nee Cummins are: James 1823, Mary 1824, our Ann floats around somewhere here c1826, James 1827. Then there is a 5 year gap before James and Mary's Castlecomer babies: Thomas 1832, John 1840 and Robert 1842. So in that five year gap we put the William born in 1829 in Cork.
2. Their Children's Names: William and his wife Mary Ann Saunders of Beckwith name their 3 sons: 1. Robert 1858, 2. James 1875 and 3. William John (called John) 1878. These children were born after Robert and Mary (we call his parents) arrive to join the group in Canada.
Their daughters they name: Mary Jane 1860, Elizabeth 1862, Esther 1864, Sarah Ellen 1869. No daughter gets called Mary Ann after their Mother. These names fit into our Ann's names for her daughters eg Mary Elizabeth 1856, Sarah Jane 1857 etc.
3. In DRTT, William John (our 1829) is the first cousin of John Keyes 1826 (the son of James who immigrated 1817 and married a Leighlinbridge girl in 1822 in Beckwith). So whoever his father is (William/Robert James) he is sibling to James (1786).
William John is readily named in DRTT and with him is the story "Grandfather Keyes liked to graft trees" - no name - means the author's uncertainty of the name.
Cousins William and John (1826) seem to be buddies because William had quite a range of male cousins to be compared with but John is selected - was it said that they were the same age (using an Irish ruler) - hence his 1826 birth became history?
4. William's descendent via his eldest daughter Mary Jane's line (who is Denise Millington now of Gold Coast, AU) has the letter from our Ann complaining brother William never told me my father had died (1876). The letter wasn't written to brother William, but we presume was later sent to brother William, presumably to smarten him up.
If William John was born in Cork in 1826 as the son of William Keyes and Ann nee Coumans then he is Ann's cousin. So why would his daughter receive and save Ann's letter?
---