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TRANSCRIPT OF JOSEPH PHILIBERT DEPOSITION IN MISSOURI SUPREME COURT CASE  AGAINST THE  WILLIAM GILLIS ESTATE.
FILED JANUARY 15, 1875
Contributed by Wilma Fields All rights reserved.



JOSEPH PHILABERT COURT DEPOSITION
Note: The xxx’s denote illegible words in the document.

The defendants read in to evidence  the depositions of Joseph Philibert, which is in words and figures: to-wit

Joseph Philibert of lawful age being produced, sworn and in the part of the said defendant, deposeth   and saith,

Interrog 1st.   State your name, age, residence and occupation.

Ans.   To Int. 1st. My name is Joseph Philibert. My age is sixty eight years. My residence is at the mouth of James River in Stone County, My occupation a farmer.

Int. to 2,   Are you aquanted   with Plaintiffs and Defendants in this case.

Ans.   I am not but I have heard of them.

Int.   3rd.   Were you aquainted with William Gilliss, the Tester mentioned in this case If yea, state when and where you first became aquainted with him.

Ans.   I was aquainted with him. I became aquanted with him in Ste. Genevieve. The dates trouble me. It must have been in 1819 or 1820.

Int. 4th.   What business were you engaged in from the Sring of 1822 to the spring of 1831 and at what place.

Ans.   In Sept. 1822, when I first came to James Fork Trading Post. I went to work at the Gun Smith s business. I worked at that business for a few weeks, when I was employed by   Gilliss as a clerk and there I was   mostly I was engaged to sell goods as a clerk at the Delaware Trading House on the James Fork of White River.

Int. 6th.   In whose employ and under whose direction and control were you during that time.

Ans.   Was in the emplooy and under the control of William Gilliss, during that time till 1830.

Int. 6th,.   Who besides youself was employed as cleck in the Indian trading business under Gilliss at the James Fork Trading Post.      
Ans.   No one but a young man by the name of William Myers from June 1827 to he mouth of Swan Creek which is now Raney County, Mo. Where the town of Forsyth is now located.  

Int   State as near as you can the month and year you first came to the James Fork Trading House to remain in business.

Ans.   To 7th   I came to James Fork Trading Post between the 1st and 18th of   September 1822

Int.   8   Statenthe name of the county and state in which said James Fork Trading House was located and how near was it to your present place of residence.

Ans.     Where James Fork Trading Post was located is now in Christian County and State of Missouri and about forty   miles from my present place of residence and about fourteen miles southwest of Springfield, Mo.

Int.   9th   What tribe of Indians did Gilliss supply from said Post. Please state the name of each tribe and the distance each tribe was located from said trading post.

Ans.     He was the trader if the Delaware s, but when the Shawnees, Peoria, Weas, and Piankeshaws came we traded with them.

Int.   10th.   State if Gilliss had a house at or near the mouth of Swan River. If yea state during what time and what tribe of Indians were supplied from that Post.

Ans. He did have from the 1827   xxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx part of the year 1829. The Weas, Peoria s, and Piankeshaws were supplied from that house.  

Int.   11.   State the distance and direction from the James Fork Trading Post, the tribes of Indians mentioned were located.

Ans       The Delaware s lived around the James Fork Trading Post, above and below and the other tribes mentioned forty miles south near t
Int. 6th,.   Who besides youself was employed as cleck in the Indian trading business under Gilliss at the James Fork Trading Post.

Ans.   No one but a young man by the name of William Myers from June 1827 to he mouth of Swan Creek which is now Raney County, Mo. Where the town of Forsyth is now located.

Int.   12   What part of the business at said trading post did you specially attend to while in business there under Gilliss.

Ans.   I laid in the goods and sold the goods for furs and peltry.

Int.   13.   When did William Myers come to the trading house in the employ of Gilliss.

Ans.   To the best of my recollection Wm. Myers came there in the employ of Gilliss the latter part of the summer of 1827.

Int   14.What part of the business did Myers specially attend to.

Ans.   He traded with the Piankeshaws, Weas and Peorias at the mouth of Swan part of the time . The remainder of the time he was under me at the James Fork Trading House.   There was no necessity of Myers remaining at the Mouth of Swan all the time as we had a man named Basila Bryers stationed there in charged of that branch house in Myers absence to take care of the property as a hired hand. He was not able to work. The house was shut during Myers absence.

Int.   15,   What kind of a house did Gilliss live in while he was carrying on said business and where was his dwelling home located. Please describe the house fully and give a diagram of same from memory.

Ans.     It was one story hewed log house known as a double house with an open entry between. The south room was a kitchen-the north room was Gilliss   room. A door from each room opened into the open entry and one door on the west side of the kitchen opening to the outside. One window in the east side of Gilliss   room and a chimney at each end of the house. This was locate at the James Fork Trading Post- a diagram of said house which I have made from memory marked exhibit   A   is hereto attached and which is a description of said house.         Int.   16   Who was Gilliss   housekeeper and state who all occupied the house, stating the occupants of each room during Gilliss   residence at the James Fork Trading House.

Ans.   Two Negro women   -   Gilliss   slaves kept house for him.   The North room was occupied by Gilliss and myself and when Myers came there he also occupied the same room. The Negro women and their children occupied the kitchen being the south room.

Int.   17   What were the social and confidential relations existing between you and Gilliss while you were together at James Fork Trading House and were you acquainted   with his private affairs and his relations towards the Indian women of the tribes he traded with.

Ans.   From the very beginning we were intimate together. We were more like brothers than friends. I was acquainted with his private affairs if he told me the truth. I was acquainted with Gilliss   relations with the Indian women of the tribes with whom he traded.

Int.   18   Were you acquainted with Poquas a Delaware Indian woman if yea, state when and where and how long you knew her.

Ans.   I was acquainted with Poquas a Delaware Indian from September 1822 to 1833. I saw her first in Gilliss   house at James Fork. She was there when I landed at the trading house . She remained in the vicinity of James Fork till the Fall of 1830 when she went to Kaw River where I knew her till 1833 when I left Kaw River.

Int.   19   What were the relations between Gilliss and Poquas.

Ans.   When I first met her they lived as man and wife. They so lived till sometime in October 1822 when Gilliss went to the Arkansas River in a trading expedition. Before he left he requested me to see to her. After that they did   not live together as man and wife.

Int.   20   Do you know of Gilliss having a child by Poquas . If yea state when and at what time the child was born, the sex, and name of the child.

Ans.     I know that he had a girl child by Poquas. It was born the last of October or the first of November 1822. I went after the midwife when the child was born. We called the child Sophia. Gilliss named the child Sophia Gilliss after his return.

Int.   21   Were you acquainted with a Natta Koque Indian woman belonging to the Delaware tribe commonly called Little Girl. If yea, state when and where and how long you knew her.

Ans. I was acquainted with her from 1822 to1833 at James Fork Trading Post. While the Delaware lived there and afterwards at Kaw River while I lived there.

Int.   22   Do you know what the term Natta Koqueas applied   to Indians means. If yea, then please explain the same fully.

Ans.   I only knew that they were a band of the Delaware tribe calling themselves Natta Koqueas. The children born took their name from their mother not from their father.   All the tribes with which I was acquainted did the same. Little Girl s parents were half NattaKoque and half French.

Int.   23   Do you know what were the relations between Wm. Gilliss and Little Girl. If yea, state the relations.

Ans. I do . He kept her as his wife. I think it was in the year 1824 when he first took her. It was at James fork Trading   Post.   In the fall Gilliss went to Black River Swamp on a trading expedition and took Little Girl with him about the same time I went to St. Genevieve I meet Gilliss at Hicks Ferry Current River, Arkansas State. From there we went to   Big Black River and remained there till late spring. When Gilliss went to St. Genevieve and had pack horses and I brought Little Girl back for Wm. Gilliss to James Fork Trading House. She remained with Gilliss till about the   1st of May following when she went back to her father for good. Did not live together after that.

Int.   24   Do you know of Gilliss having a child by Little Girl, if yea state the time and place and the sex and the name of the child.

Ans.     I do. The Child was born about   two months after she left Gilliss about July 1824 at her parents about one and ½ miles from the James Fork Trading House. It was a girl. He, Gilliss named her Mary Gilliss.
            Int.   25   Who kept and provided for and raised Sophia Gilliss and Mary Gilliss.

Ans. They remained with their mothers till they were old enough to go about then they were given to Mr. Gilliss .   William Gilliss then kept them at his own house in the hands of his black women. During the absence of Gilliss, I saw to them, that they were provided for.

Int.   26   What was Mr. Gilliss   conduct towards and treatment to the said children.

Ans.   His treatment was that of an affectionate and good father.

Int.   27   When and where did you   last see Sophia and Mary Gilliss.

Ans.     At Gilliss House on Turkey Creek near Kaw River in Jackson County, Missouri in the year 1833.

Int.   28     Were you acquainted with Leharsh a Piankeshaw Indian and his wife and children. If yea, state the time and place when and where you first became acquainted with them and how long you knew them.

Ans.     Yes. I have seen him often, but never had any dealings with him. First met him to my recollection at Pinsauneau   Trading House on the Osage about the year 1825, afterwards saw him and his family encamped near one trading post when he was moving with his family to the mouth of the Swan. To the best of my knowledge he had two sons and one daughter. After Leharsh and family moved to Swan River his wife and children lived in one of the houses owned by Lirimier which was left in the possession of Gilliss.          
Int.   29   Were you acquainted with the daughter of Leharsh . If yea, state the time and place when and where you first became with her and about her age and how long and where you   xxxxxxxxxx to know her and her name if you remember.

Ans.     I was. I saw her at different places while encamped at the James Fork Trading Post and also when they lived at the mouth of Swan in the Lirimier house. I saw her at different times, I believe from the year 1825 to 1829 until shortly before the removal of the Piankeshaws to Grand River. I don t remember her name now.         Int.   30 Do you have any knowledge of any intimacy existing at any time between Gilliss and Leharsh s   Daughter during the time that Gilliss lived at James Fork Trading House. If yea, state all about it.

Ans.   I have not, nor never knew of any intimacy existing between them.

Int.   31   While you were under Gilliss at James Fork Trading Post subsequent to the time that Leharsh moved to the mouth of Swan., did Gilliss to your knowledge remain any of his time at the trading house at the mouth of Swan. If yea, state how he was there and how long he may have   xxxxx

Ans.     I recollect about you or three times that he was   down there and stayed one night only that I know of. He might have been there fifty times when I was away from home.

Int. 32   Do you know what year and the time of year the Piankeshaw Indians moved from the mouth of Swan to Grand River now in Cass County   Missouri.

Ans.   To the best of my recollection it was in the fall of 1829

Int. 33   Do you know who moved them

Ans.   Gilliss I suppose was the man that moved them.   I recollect very well when he returned from moving them.

Int.   34. When were you at the removal of the Piankeshaw Indians to Grand River.

Ans.   I must have   been at home or near the trading post. I did not see them pass the trading post at James Fork when they moved, but Gilliss stayed one night at   the James Fork Trading Post.

Int.   35     Were you at home at the James Fork Trading Post when Gillis returned from Grand River.          
Ans.     I was at home.

Int.   36   About what time was it when Gilliss returned from Grand River.Ans.     It must have been the latter part of November or the first part of December 1829.

Int.   37   Where did you remain during that winter of following spring after the removal of the Piankeshaws.

Ans.           I remained during the winter at James Fork Trading Post and made a trip to Three Forks of White River.

Int.   38 How long were you gone from home on that trip to Three Forks of White River,

Ans.       It might have been   two weeks - it might have been three weeks I know it was not long.

Int.   39   What   season of the year was it that you made the trip to Three Forks of the White River.
       
Ans.     I think it was November.

Int.   40   State if you saw any member of Leharsh s family at Gilliss   house at James Fork Trading Post at any time in the winter and spring after the removal of the Piankeshaws to Grand River.

Ans.   I don t recollect of seeing any   of them there.

Int.   41   Do you have any knowledge of Gilliss and Baptiste Peoria after Gilliss   return from Grand River in the winter of 1829, fixing up pack horses and going to Cow Skin.

Ans.   No. I have no knowledge of any such thing - never heard of it. Gilliss was not at Cow Skin while I was with him.

Int.   41/2   State whether Leharsh s daughter was at Gilliss   house at James Fork Trading Post at any time during the winter and spring following the removal of the Piankeshaws to Grand River.

Ans.   I do not recollect of seeing Leharsh daughter at Gilliss house at that time or any other time.

Int. 42   State where you roomed in the winter of 1829 and Spring of 1830 after the removal of the Piankeshaws to Grand River - where you slept and eat and who slept in the same room with you and who eat at the same table with you.

Ans.   I roomed in the same room that Gilliss roomed in-his bed was in one corner and mine was in the other. When I was at home and Gilliss was at home, we eat at the same table in the same room that we slept.   William Gilliss and William Myers, when he was there , slept in the same room with me.

Int.   43   Do you know who roomed and slept in the kitchen, the south room of Gilliss said house during the same time you was at James Fork Trading Post. If yea, state who.

Ans.     Gilliss Negro women and children and the husband of   one of them, one of them being married.                  
Int.   44   Did any other person   lodge or sleep in Gilliss   said house during the time you was there , besides those already   named by you as having slept   and lodged there . If yea, who

Ans.   Yes, sometimes a white visitor would come and remain with us and sleep with us.

Int.     45   Where there any other   except white visitors.

Ans.     I don t know of any.

Int.     46   Where did Gilliss remain during the winter and spring following the removal of the Piankeshaws to Grand River.

Ans.   He remain at James Fork Trading House.

Int.   47   State whether Leharsh s daughter you have spoken of is the same spoken of and known as KahKatoqua.
       
Ans. From what I have heard she was the same . I never heard of his having but one daughter , her parents were old when I knew the family.

Int.   48   Do you have any Knowledge of Leharsh s wife, daughter and son or either of them being at Gilliss   house at James Fork Trading Post at any time during the winter and spring following the removal of the Piankeshaws to Grand River or thereafter up to the time of Gilliss removal from James Fork Trading Post. If yea, state all about it.

Ans.     I have none sir.

Int. 49   State whether Gilliss and Leharsh s daughter lived together at James Fork Trading Post the winter and spring following the removal of the Piankeshaws to Grand river.

Ans. They did not live together then to my knowledge I knew where Gilliss was. He was at home on James Fork Trading Post during the winter till grass grew in the spring, when he went to St, Genevieve.

Int.   50   Do you have knowledge of Gilliss and Leharsh s   daughter living together at James Fork Treading Post at any time before or after the removal of the Piankeshaws to the Grand River. If yea, state all about it.
       
Ans.       I have no such knowledge.

Int.   52   Do you have any knowledge of Gilliss having a child by Leharsh s daughter. If yea, state your whole   knowledge.

Ans.     I have no such knowledge of it.

Int.   53     State whether any Indian woman or girl lodged in Gilliss   house at any time during this winter and spring following the removal of the Piankeshaws to the Grand River. If yea, state when and where.          
Ans.     I don t recollect of any.

Int.   54   Do you know whether any Indian woman or girl lodged in Gilliss   room during that time . If yea, state who.

Ans.     I do not know of any.

Int.   55   Do you know when Gilliss closed   and removed from James Fork Trading Post. If yea,   state when and where did he remove to and locate if you know.

Ans.   I knew , he closed the business in the spring of 1831. He moved away that same spring   of 1831. He moved to Kansas River and located in Turkey Creek near the mouth of Kansas   River.   I accompanied him to Turkey Creek and I remained there that summer.

Int.   56   What then   became of Gilliss Negro women and the two children   Sophia and Mary Gilliss

Ans.   They went with him to his new home in Turkey Creek.

Int..   51/2   Do you have any knowledge of Leharsh s daughter being at Gilliss   house at the James Fork Trading Post at any time after the removal of the Piankeshaws to Grand River . If yea, state time she was there and how long she remained at any on time.

Ans.     I have no knowledge of her being there at all.

Int.   52   Who assisted Gilliss in moving the Piankeshaws Indians from the mouth of Swan River to the Grand River.

Ans.     William Myers and his teamsters.

Int.   58   Who laid in the goods   for Gilliss   for his Indian trading business after you went into his employment.

Ans.   I mostly did - at first he did sometimes, but at last I did.

Int.   59   Who laid in the goods for the last several years that the business was carried on at James Fork Trading Post.

Ans.   I did.

Int.   60   After Gilliss removal from James Fork Trading Post, where and with whom did you then   live and how long did young so live.

Ans.     I lived with William Gilliss from the spring of 1831 to February 1833 on Turkey Creek, Jackson County.
          Int.   61   What was Gilliss engaged in and where   did he stay or pass his time while you lived with him on Turkey Creek.

Ans.   He was about home at Turkey Creek engaged in no particular business until the summer of 1832   when he went to St. Louis to an Indian treaty. He remained there till in the fall about November.

Int.   62   Was Gilliss absent from home at any time after you removal to Turkey Creek near the mouth of Kaw River. If ye, Where and when he was when from home if you know.

Ans.   I know of absent at the treaty at St. Louis in the summer of 1832.   This was all his agency that I know of except a visit   to Scotos   Trading Post   with me when Col. Menard was there.

Int.   63   Do you know where Gilliss was in the summer of 1830, If yea, state where he was and if away from James fork Trading Post, state the time he left, how long he was gone and the time he returned to the trading post and by what route he returned if you know.

Ans.   I believe in the latter part of the summer of 1830 he was in   xxxx land. He must have left late in Spring of 1830. Don t know exactly the time he left. I think he was gone about three months and a half. He returned   to the trading post late in the fall. He returned by the same old route we always traveled - what we called the old Piney Road - which route came and led from St. Genevieve by Massey s Inn, works across little xxx and big Piney passing to the head waters of the James by the house of Thomas Patterson and then four miles south of Springfield and so through xxx   xxxxxx   xxxxxxxx James Fork Trading Post.
           
Int.   64   Who accompanied Mr. Gilliss in his return on that trip from St. Genevieve.

Ans.   Sylvester Sausier who remained with us until I left Turkey Creek in 1833.

Int.     65   Do you know where Sylvester Sausier now lives or if he is yet living.

Ans.   I don t believe he is living though I am not certain. I have Frequently xxxxxx after him and could hear nothing of him.

Int.   66   How long did Gilliss then remain at home at James Fork Trading Post after his return in the fall of 1830 as you have stated.

Ans.   He remained at home til1831, when he removed the Delawares.

Int.   67   Have you any knowledge of Mr. Gilliss ever visiting the Piankeshaw tribe or any portion of them in Indian Country after his return from Grand River to James Fork Trading Post. In fall of 1829 and between that time and the Spring of 1833. If yea state when and how often and how long he remained with them at any one time.

Ans.   I have no knowledge of any such visits.

Int.   69   Do you know any thing about the removal of the Delaware Indians from the James Fork of White River. If yea, state who moved them and when and where they were moved to and who all assisted and accompanied them in moving there

Ans.   Yes in the winter of 1830 on my return from St. Genevieve, Gilliss was gone moving the Delaware Indians . He returned three or four days after my return. Col. Menard and Valley, not knowing that   Gilliss had moved any of the Delawares sent me horses for that purpose. In the spring Gilliss moved the remainder   of the Delawares, mostly poor ones. And at that time we broke up all business at the James Fork Trading   Post   and all went to Turkey Creek, Kaw River.

Int.   70   Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Gilliss being   at the Cow Skin   at any time in the fall or winter of 1829 after the removal of the Piankeshaw Indians to Grand river. If yea, state the time of his visit there and his business there if you know.

Ans.   I have no knowledge of his being there then or at any other time while I was in his employ.

Int.   71   Do you know where the locality of the place then called Cow Skin is.   If yea, state where said place is.

Ans.     Yes,   it is a small river taking it s origin in Missouri and empties into Grand River in the Seneca Indian Country.

Int.   72   When did you remove from Turkey Creek near the mouth   of the Kaw and where did you then move   to and where have you lived ever since.

Ans.   I left Turkey Creek February 1833 and came to White River, Stone County, Missouri and have been living there ever since.

Int.   73   Were you acquainted with the Piankeshaw customs and usages as to the men and women selling and eating at the same table. If yea, state such   customs fully and particularly such customs and usages as to husband and wife.

Ans.   Yes, They never eat at the same table when together even among husband and wife   The man always eats first, the women afterwards.

Int.   74   State whether this you have stated was general among all Indian tribes you have been acquainted with.
         
Ans     It was general among all tribes with which I was acquainted.

Int.   75   State whether any Indian woman eat with Gilliss at his table at the James Fork Trading Post at any time while you was there from the year 1822 up to the time of Gilliss removal to the Kaw River in 1831.   If yea, state what Indian women, their names and when.

Ans.     No, I never knew   one single Indian woman ever eat with Gilliss at all not one single time, never seen one.
       
Int.   76   How far is it from James Fork Trading Post of White River to the Cow Skin in the Senes a Indian County.

Ans.     I believe it is eighty miles.

Int.   Were you acquainted with the Piankeshaw Indian customs and usages in reference to contracting marriage If yea, state full such customs and manners of consummating marriage.

Ans. If their customs were like the Delawares I was and my understanding is that they were the same. There were two sorts of people - one rich and the other poor. The rich were called   Big Folks . If you wanted one of their daughters   - a virgin you had to make a friend   - generally a woman -   for your friend. Tell you wanted such xxxxx daughter. Then your friend would tell you it would take such and such articles and goods naming the articles it would take that she believed that you could get her for these articles. Then you made up the bundle of goods and gave it to your friend. The friend would tell you that tomorrow or day after tomorrow she would go and if she returned with the bundle of goods you could not get her without adding such and such articles.   After adding the required articles and the bundle was taken back if they were accepted your friend returned and tells you, you can get her and she will be here such and such a night.   She never comes along, but when she comes about dark accompanied by her mother or aunt or elder sister if she has one. Then   the one that brings her soon after leaves and goes home and then you invite the bride to come and show the blanket - this consummates the marriage. Some require more than others and sometimes a horse or gun or saddle are given.

Int.   78   To which member of the family of the girl is the application made and the goods offered.

Ans.   To the Mother . If she has no mother then to the aunt   called little women.

Int.   79   What, if anything, did the father of the Indian girl have to do   with the application for and the marriage of the daughter.

Ans.   I don t know that he has anything to do with the application but I am told that when the father and mother are alone together that they talk   the matter over between themselves, but says nothing to the friend that offers the goods. The goods are offered to the mother or just put down.

Int.   80   State whether the father is approached on the subject by the friend of the applicant.

Ans.     No, he is never approached that I have ever heard.         Adjournment      
Int   81   State whether the customs and usages of Indian marriages which you have described were general among all the Indian woman you were then acquainted with.
Ans.   I believe they were general among the Indian tribes I knew.

Int.   82.   Were you acquainted   with a Delaware Indian woman named Charlotte, If yea, state when and where.

Ans.   I was. I was acquainted with her from 1822 to 1833 at the Delaware village and at the James Fork Trading Post and also at old mine

Int.   83   Do you know what relation existed between Mr. Gilliss and Charlotte. If yea, state what such relations were and the time and place.

Ans.     Yes, He brought her from Arkansas River to James fork Trading Post as a wife in the spring of 1823 and kept her a day or two. I suppose he brought her as his wife.

Int. 84   Were you acquainted   with a Delaware Indian woman, Black   Squaw - if yea, state when and where.

Ans.     Yes. I was. I was acquainted   with her at Delaware Town and at Black River Swamp. I was acquainted   with her from 1823 to 1824. I think.

Int.   85   Do you know what relations existed between Gilliss and Black Squaw - if yea, state what these relations were , where and what place .

Ans.   Yes,   he had her for one of his wives. He had two at the same time. In the year 1823 Gilliss stared   for the Black river Swamp and encamped at   Rich Wood   and the mother of Black Squaw brought her to Mr. Gilliss there.   I am not certain about the date. It might have been in 1823 - 1824 or 1825. They went from Richwood to Black River. In the following winter before his return from Black River to James Fork Trading Post he drove her off and she went to her aunt. He never lived with her at home. He took this woman sometime after he had Little Girl and he had the two awhile at the same time.

Int. 86   Do you know anything about Mr. Gilliss having a Delaware Indian woman, a daughter of Capt. Ketchum at the trading post at James Fork of White River . If yea, state all you know about it and the time and the relations which existing between Gilliss and her.

Ans.   Yes he had such a woman about his house. When she came there I was not at home. William Myers was there at the time. She remained from four to six weeks, He Gilliss told me he drove her off. I was either in 1827 or 1828 that she was there. I m not certain of which.

Int.   87   Do you know of Gilliss having any other Indian women at the James Fork trading post with whom he lived any at all except those already named by you. I yea, state their names and time he had them there.

Ans.   Yea I know of one. I knew her only by the name of Wilson She was Wilson s daughter. She was a Delaware   half breed   I think it was the summer of 1828 or 1829 that he had her there to the best of my recollection. How long he had her I cannot tell. She may have slept at Gilliss   house two or three nights to my Knowledge and when she came there her mother generally came with her. She lived with her mother and brother . They lived at Capt. Ketchum s Delaware Village below us . Gilliss frequently went to their house in the evening and returned the next morning. He kept her to my recollection about two months and then quit her.

Int.   88 Do you know of Gilliss keeping or living with any Indian woman at the James Fork trading post at any time after he quit Wilson s daughter, If yea, state who and when.

Ans.   I do not to my knowledge know of his keeping or living with any after he quit living with Wilson s daughter.

Int. 89   Were you acquainted with James Pool at James Fork trading post. If yea, state how long said Pool lived there, what was his employment and his wife s name if you recollect it.

Ans.   I was acquainted with Pool before we came to this county. He was here when I came . He was the Delaware blacksmith - employed by the government at James Fork trading post. He lived there till the fall of 1820 when he moved to the Kaw River I was acquainted   with Mrs. Pool.   I think her name is Phebe. Mrs. Pool left with Mr. Pool for Kaw River in the fall of 1830. She, Mrs. Pool is a white woman.

Int.   90   Were you acquainted with Sarcoxie and the Connors - men of note of the Delaware Indian Tribe at James Fork Trading Post during the time you were employed at said post.

Ans.     Yes. I was acquainted with Sarcoxie who lived at the Delaware town and John and Henry Connor. They lived at Capt. Ketchums village.

Int.   91   Do you remember the names of any other Delaware Indians who were young persons about the year 1829 and 1830 and who were familiar about James Fork trading post . If yea, state their names.
                                                                             
Ans.     I don t remember at this time, except it is John Marshall.

    Int. 92     Do you know under what authority Gilliss moved the Piankeshaws from the mouth   of the Swan   to Grand River.   If yea, state all about it and whether Gilliss had any contract with the U.S> Government for moving them.

Ans.   I do not know except this - Col. Menard had orders from Superintendent of Indian Affairs at St. Louis to move the Piankeshaws where they wanted to move.   Col. Menard didn t know that they wanted to move and how Gilliss knew it, I do not know.   He either moved them on his own hook or volunteered to do it.
       
Int.   93   Do you remember the complexion of Leharsh s daughter. If yea, state what was her complexion.

Ans.   Yes she was a tolerable white Indian.

Int.   94   Were you   acquainted while in the Indian Country with one Baptiste Peoria. If yea, when and where did you first become acquainted with him and how long   and where did you know him.

Ans.     Yes I was acquainted with him. I became acquainted with him in St. Genevieve before I came to this country.   I knew him from about 1819 to 1832 at St. Genevieve, James Fork Trading Post and Grand   River and at the mouth of Swan River. He passed for a Peoria Indian.

Int.   96   Were you acquainted   with the wife of Baptiste Peoria. If yea, state to what tribe she belonged.
       
Ans.   I was acquainted with her and she passed for the daughter of a Piankeshaw   Chief.

Int.   97   Had you any knowledge of Baptiste Peoria being in the employ of Mr. Gilliss about the time of the removal of the Piankeshaw Indians to Grand River. If yea, state   what was his employment.

Ans.     I have no knowledge of Baptiste Peoria being employed by Mr. Gilliss about the time of the removals of the Piankeshaw Indians , but he was employed before that time.

Int.   98   What was his employment before that time under Gilliss.

Ans.     His employment before that time was to track horses and to interpret with the Piankeshaws, Peorias and Weas, the language we could not talk.

Int.   99   State whether Baptiste Peoria to your knowledge acted in the capacity of clerk for Mr. Gilliss at any time while you were under Gilliss. If yea, state when and where.

Ans.   I never knew Baptiste Peoria to act as clerk for Gilliss.

Int.     100   Do you know where Baptiste Peoria remained after the removal of the Piankeshaw Indians to Grand River.

Ans.     It is my understanding he went with the Piankeshaws. I don t know where he remained and I saw nothing of him in this country afterwards.

Int.     101   State whether Baptiste Peoria was at James Fork trading Post the winter and spring following the removal of the Piankeshaw Indians to Grand river. If yea, state of what time and how long he remained.
       
Ans.     I did not see him nor hear of him.

Int.     102   Do you know where Baptiste Peoria eat and lodged when at or about the James Fork trading Post before he left there. If yea, state the place.

Ans.     He slept with the hired hands in the house with the hired hands. I suppose he also eat with the hired hands.
       
Int   103   State whether Baptiste Peoria while about the James Fork Trading Post eat or lodged in Gilliss dwelling house.   If yea, at whose table did he eat   and in which room did he sleep.
Ans.     He never eat or lodged in Gilliss   house to my knowledge.

Int.   104   State whether any flour was on hand at the James Fork trading post at and about   and after the removal of the Piankeshaws Indians to Grand River.

Ans.   I don t think there was any on hand for Gilliss never bought any except sometimes a few pounds to use on the road from St. Genevieve to James Fork Trading Post.

Int. 105   Do you know what Indian language Mr. Gilliss was able to speak and understand while you were with him. If yea, state what language .

Ans.     He understood and spoke the Delaware language.

Int.   106   State whether Gilliss was able to speak and understand the Piankeshaw language.

Ans.   He was not.

Int.   107     Were you acquainted   with Col. Menard of Menard and Valley If yea, state when where you knew him.

Ans.   Yes, I knew him from the time I was a child. I knew him at St. Louis, Ste. Genevieve And KasKasKie
       
Int.   108   Are you acquainted with Peter Menard now of Fremont Tazewell County Illinois, a son of said Col. Menard.   If yea, state when and where you first became acquainted with him and what were the social and business relations existing between you and said Peter Menard during the time you were under Gilliss at James Fork Trading Post.

Ans.   Yes I was well acquainted with him. He was somewhat older than I. I was acquainted with him in St. Louis and Ste. Genevieve, KasKasKie and James trading Post. I was acquainted   with him from the time I was a boy up to the year 1834. We were friendly together but not in business together. I was a clerk for Gilliss and he was employed by Menard and Valley.

Int.   109   State the year and the month as near as you can in which Peter Menard made his last visit to James Fork Trading Post while you were there under Gilliss of which you have any knowledge.

Ans.     I believe in 1826 was the last visit he ever paid us at James Fork Trading Post. He usually came in the spring or the fall. Before 1826 he sometimes came twice a year.

Int.   110     State if you have any knowledge of Peter Menard being at James Fork Trading Post after William Myers came there to be clerk in Gilliss business there. If yea, state where.

Ans.   I don t believe he ever was here at James Fork Trading Post after William Myers came to the trading house. He went to Peoria Illinois.

Int.   112   State whether   Delaware Trading House   and James Fork Trading Post   both of which you have mentioned are one and the same place.

Ans.     They are one and the same place. We used to call it Delaware Trading House. It is usually called James Fork Trading Post    
                                                                                                                          Int.   113,   Where were you when Gilliss returned from Grand River after moving the Piankeshaws there in the fall or 1829.

Ans.   I believe I was at the James Fork Trading Post.

Cross Examination by Plaintiffs Counsel.

Int.   1,   According to the Indian customs of marriage in your   examination in chief, how many wives was a man permitted to have at the same time.

Ans.   I never knew any law among the Delaware s, debarring a man from having as many wives as he had a mind to have.

Int.   2,   Did you ever know of a case of a man having two wives at the same time among the   Delaware Indians and if so how many.

Ans.   Yes, I knew several. Little Jack a pure Delaware, he had a mother and a daughter for wives at the same time. The war chief- Shuwanack s son had two-his own cousin and   a strange woman. McCullock had Shuwanack s niece and another woman. I have no doubt I could think of others by studying.
Int.   3,   Were the Delaware women   honest and virtuous like the Piankeshaws.

Ans.   They were not. There were a few exceptions-there were some honest ones

Int.   4,   Were you present at the marriage of William Gilliss with any   of the Delaware women mentioned in your direct examination. If so, state the ceremonies.

Ans. I was not.

Int.   5,   Do you know anything of your own knowledge of William Gilliss marriage with any of the Deleware women mentioned   in your direct   examination. If so state what you know and all about it.

Ans.   All I know about it is seeing him going to bed with them and calling them his wife.

Int.   6.   How did man and wife separate according to the customs   of the Indians.

Ans.   I have always heard if the wife left she took her own property and left. And if the man left he did the same. I have often known them to drive their wives away. This is all the Law of Divorce I knew among the Indians.

Int.   7,   During your employment by Gilliss at the James Fork Trading Post from the year 1822 to1830 were you necessarily compelled to be away from the post   more or less every year, and if so, state what trips you made what distance you went and how long you were absent.

Ans.   I was, I am not able to tell now. Sometimes I was absent two or three days. Sometimes two or three weeks, a month and once upwards of two months. St. Genevieve was one place to go to we called it 250 miles.

Int.   8,   How often did you go to Ste. Genevieve and for what purpose.

Ans.   I can t tell now. I went sometimes once a year, sometimes twice and once I went   three times.
       
Int.   9,   How many trips did you make down the James Fork and White River with furs in boats during the time from 1822 to 1830.

Ans.   One trip I made in 1827 with William Myers to Forsyth. One trip I made with William Gilliss from Delaware Town to Forsyth down   the James. One trip from Forsyth to New Orleans. This is all the trips I made with boats while in the employ of Gilliss.

Int.   10,   During the time from 1822   to 1830 how many   trips did you make to the three forks of White River.
       
Ans. I can t tell. I was there five falls. It took me two days to go and two days to come back.

Int.   11,   What was your business there on these trips.

Ans.   To go and get their peltry- The Indians Peltry and collect our credits-what the Indians owed us, the Delaware s

Int.   12,   Were you at Pincineceau Trading House in the Osage from the year 1822 to1830   and if so, how many times and how far was said trading post from James Fork Trading House.

Ans.   From 1826 I believe I was there from Delaware town some three or four. I cannot tell how far it was from James Fork Trading House . But it must have been 90 to 100 miles. I rode it in two days

Int.   13,   What was your business there.

Ans.   The first time I lost my way and got there- the second time I went to see Pincinneceau the third time I went with Col. Renard

Int.   14,   How often were you at Cow Skin during those years.

Ans.   I don t think I was there but once.

Int.   15,   How often were you   at Black Swamp during those years.

Ans.   I don t think I was there but once.

Int.   16,   During the years from 1822 to1830 what other ponts did you visit to collect peltry and collect from the Indians

Ans.   I visited sugar creek and the Kickapoo in Arkansas.

Int.   17,   After the Piankeshaws   moved from the mouth of the Swan to Grand River in the fall of 1829 did William Myers   ever return to the James River Trading Post.

Ans.   Yes. He returned late in the spring following.

Int.   18,   Where did he go after his return to Gilliss trading house on the James Fork of White River after his return from Grand River in the Spring of 1830.

Ans.   Gilliss requested me to take Myers with me and go to Grand River to the Piankeshaw Chief and collect $1000.00 which they owed him. We went- we got there in the evening. We let him know our business by Baptiste Peoria interpreting for us. From there we went to the Kaw River from there we went to St. Louis- from there we went to Ste Genevieve.

Int.   19,   About what time in the Spring of 1820 did you and William Myers go from Gilliss trading house in the James Fork of White River to the Piankeshaw settlement on Grand River

Ans. About the 20th   of July we started from James Fork Trading Post to Grand River.

Int.   20,   In your direct examination have you given dates and circumstances from memory without the aid of books or memoranda.

Ans.   I have given dates and circumstances from memory as well as I could.

Int.   21,   What has been your physical condition in regard to health for a number of years past.

Ans.   My health has been very bad.

Int.   22,   How long have you been affected with  liver complaint?
Ans.     About twenty years

Int.   23,   How long have you been affected with neuralgia in the head?

Ans.     The first was in the later part of February  1865

Int.   24,   Is it from the effects of that   that you   lost the use of your right eye.

Ans.     It is.

(please note Int. 25   is either skipped or was taken out of record)

Int. 26,   Were you very much disturbed during the xxx rebellion   living at the mouth o James Fork of White River and if so state how and by whom.

Ans.     I was disturbed some of course by Secesh   and Union men both. The rebels come to kill me and the Union men took my corn, flour, bacon, hay and everything.

Int.   27,     How much money did they rob you of.

Ans.     The Secesh   took upward of $900 in gold.

Int.   28,   Between the year 1822 and 1829 did you know of William Gilliss   taking a fancy or becoming interested in KahKetogua   or Leharsh s daughter. If so state what you know about it.

Ans.     I never saw them together.

Int.   29,   Could you speak the Piankeshaw language.

Ans.     I could not speak their language, but I could understand enough   to trade with them.

Int.   30 Did you ever live at the mouth of Swan.

Ans.     No. I never lived there I only stayed there two or three days at a time.

Int.   31,   Between the years 1822 and 1830 with what tribe of Indians did you principally live and what Indian language if any did you learn to speak. Ans.   I lived with the Delaware Indians - there was my home . I leaned to speak the Delaware language.

Re-Examination by Defendant.

Int.   1,   You stated in your cross examination that you were at Pincinneau Trading Post three or four times. Please state whether   you saw   Leharsh s daughter at said trading house at either of these times. If yea, at whose house did you see her.

Ans. I saw her there once , I believe it was on my first visit there when I was lost in 1825. The house belonged to the American Fur Company and Pincinneau was the trader.

Int.   3,     State if you at any time had knowledge or information what relations existed between Pincinneau and LeHarsh s daughter previous to the year 1829.

Ans.     To the best of my knowledge I know of no information that any relations existed between Pincinneau and LeHarsh s daughter previous to the year 1829.

Int.   4,   Have you ever traveled any time from home during the last three months If yea, to what places , in what manner and state the xxxxxxxxx     xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ans.     Yes I have- I went some sixty or seventy miles on a little trip to Christian Creek in Arkansas I have also been to Springfield, about   sixty miles. I was also to Galena yesterday.   A week ago about   twenty miles. I traveled all this on horse back. When I am forced to travel I travel but it nearly kills me.

Int.   5,   How did you travel from your home to Galena at this time and on what day and who accompanied you.

Ans.   I traveled on horse back. It was Tuesday   the 7th   of June. Mr. Grover the plaintiffs counsel accompanied me.

                             
Int.   6,   Who attends to your own private business which requires attending. Ans.       I do.               And further Deponent sayeth   not             Joseph   Philibert       Subscribed and sworn   to before me on the day at the place and within the xxx   xxx hours first aforesaid                 XXXXX   W. Estes, Justice xx xxx           within the county of Stone County
      Missouri    


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